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apiOng-YPG
03.08.03, 07:12 AM
I have a concern about service in Roman Catholic...

I have a friend who is a Music Major in UP...

I asked her why isn't she teaching/handling a choir in the Roman Catholic church... instead she choose to serve other religions (INC, Protestant, etc..)

Her answer: "My religion (R.Catholic) doesn't give the right appreciation to what I can do and share to them. Sa atin... puro service and thank you... while on other religion, they really hire us (musicians) to make their chiors sound good." There's money in other religion.

Maybe she has a point because music is her livelihood.

That made me realize why most choirs on other religion sound great and better than choirs in R.Catholic (as a whole).

n8s
03.08.03, 12:40 PM
Not wanting to sound like I'm going against what you are saying, but just as what the word says SERVICE.

Sa choir namin, kung hindi maganda ang tunog di namin kinakanta. Kasi we believe that if you cannot be proud of what you are doing huwag na lang. Kaya kami we strive hard to sound good. Di naman kailangan bayaran ang service.

Anyway, to each his own di ba? Though you have a point na maganda nga kung may support from the parish, (who doesn't want that?) kaya lang I think it should not be the end all and be all of our service nor should it be a reason not to sound good.

LouGrant
03.08.03, 07:34 PM
Hi Apiong-YPG,

Personally, I believe that there is a role that music plays in our religious experience in church. It is not there because we want to listen to good music (per se), but because it should help us experience God in a more personal and emotional way.

The choirs in church do not sing just because they will be listened to. The choir plays a significant role in leading the whole congregation to a more meaningful religious experience.

Let us be careful not to miss the point of music's involvement in our religious experiences. Music need not sound excessively good during worship. As long as it fulfills its role of moving the congregation into a more personal experience of God, then that should suffice.

You might be correct in saying that choirs in churches of other religions sound better than most choirs in R. Catholic churches. But, for me, it doesn't really matter if the choir sounds better or not. What matters is if the choir is effective in contributing to the religious experience of the congregation.

nargalzius
03.08.03, 08:25 PM
I agree with Lou, and besides purely subjective din yung sino yung mas maganda tunog. I'll cite an example that i think apiong-ypg can relate to ;) Sa european grand-prix, a choral competition series, surprisingly enough, Filipino choirs are really admired by their competitors. Just as our choirs who join the competition are usually left dumbfounded when they actually beat the competition kse if you hear the other choirs they were pitted against ay GRABE sa galeng! But yon nga, the Filipino choirs sometimes still win and beat the others despite these "odds." Thats about it for my subjective explanation.

To go to the issue at hand naman: Music here doesn't pay well unless you have connections, you are marketed well or you're really REALLY REALLY good. So if you aren't lucky enough to be the few (or many) who have any of these qualities, then it's pretty much a dead investment.

But, there are still those who do it for the love of it. Fr. Manoling is a perfect example, have you any idea how many songs he has created. . . or the magnitude of his contribution to the Church? Neither do I! ;D And yet I could guess than 99% of them arent commisioned. He and others like him create and share their talents because they want to and not because they need to.

So the real issue (and it's not really an issue if you think about it) is ano yung purpose ng friend mo? If she really wants to just share/contribute whatever it is she has to give, then either choice would be right . . . If habol niya talaga is the compensation, which is nothing to be ashamed about. These are really trying times sa country natin, and since music is her bread an butter, unlinke BP members who usually are students palang and people with day jobs, then I'd say na wise decision to go with those who appreciate her craft more.

There is no one at fault here, not her, not the system, etc. It's just a fact of life.

jowi
03.08.03, 10:50 PM
hello, apiOng-YPG!
I agree with Lou that the main role of music in church celebrations is to deepen the prayer experience of the congregation. The main mission of the choir is to help the congregation to pray more deeply, more reverently by way of song. That is why the choir also has a big responsibility of keeping the solemnity of the celebration(ex. by preparing well, singing properly, etc-- so it does not disrupt the flow of the celebration or it is not distracting, etc) by setting an example to the congregation, by actively joining in the celebration, etc., and note, too, that the choir is most of the time positioned at the front side near the altar, which is a liturgically correct position (correct me if I am wrong... the experts out there)..and that goes with a certain amout of responsibility, too :)

What you said about the choirs of other religions being better sounding compared to those in the catholic church can be true but i think that it is not a correct generalization. We have our own share of good choirs, i believe... :)

i also believe that service is not measured by remuneration. i mean, you can still get paid for something yet do what you do out of service to God. Like the jobs we have, for example. Whatever one does, if she uses what God gave her for God's greater glory, then that is still service(to God). But of course there are opportunities for volunteer service. That's another thing.
For all we know, your friend is doing what she is doing with a sincere heart for service to God but also considers practical matters. She/he can do both if she/he serves where she/he is serving now but she/he is serving God no less.

bajo
03.08.04, 02:13 PM
I think, iba-iba ang pananaw ng mga tao. Kung talagang career nya ng Music, expected talaga nya na babayaran siya dahil dun siya kumukuha ng ikabubuhay (hanap-buhay).

Sa akin naman, service lang talaga.

Alexander
03.08.06, 12:43 AM
This is a very enlightening topic a.

I remember once when we were still starting as a young choir, meron kaming kasamahan na the were getting paid sa "SERVICE" nila sa liturgy. Kaya nga ang biruan namin among ourselves.... We sing..."turuan mo akong maglingkod sa Iyo, na magbigay ng ayon sa nararapat na walang hinihintay mula sa Yo"... I know you know the song (hehehe :) )

Pero dahil doon nag isip ako, siguro kako during those days, kaya sila binabayaran dahil sila lang ang choir, pero nang dumami na ang nag se-serve (ng walang bayad of course), bigla na lang silang nawala.

Come to think of it, kung talagang "service" ang intention ng grupong iyon, kahit dumating na ang mga bagong choir, di sana sila umalis and continue serving kahit wala ng bayad. Pero wala na e, so its technically not "service" but "professional service" .

Ngayon naman, tungkol sa friend ni apiOng-YPG, its the profession or work of your friend so dont blame your him/her, as jojo has said "bread and butter" nya yun e, pero kung gusto nya makatulong sa church para gumanda ang tunog, well your friend can still do it, after doing his "job" diba?

Parang tayo, we do service after our work. As a constructive note, imbes na pulaan ang music sa Catholic church, gumawa tayo ng paraan para maging maganda ay kaaya-aya sa Panginoon at upang maging instrumento sa pananalangin ng komunidad. :)

Ojen_G
04.02.19, 01:41 AM
Habol ako!!!
Sa akin part naman ay nagseserve ako sa Bagong Silangan tapos nang maging parish na ang simbahan namin ay siyempre di kami close ng namumuno na parish priest kaya kami ang nagdecide na umalis at pumunta ng ibang parishes na pwede ang service namin. Since, sabi niya pa ay mas kailangan kami sa labas at di niya kami kailangan. Iba rin kasi ang talagang bayad sa pamasahe lang na bigay, ang sinasabing bayad ay siyempre malaki talaga. Sa akin bigay nila ay pamasahe pauwi at pabalik para sa susunod na practices pero di ako umaangal dahil service din ang intention ko. Sa Good Shepherd ay di masasabi kung bayad iyon kasi nadiscover lang nila ako last 5 months ago at tinanong kung pwede daw ba akong magturo doon ng songs tapos may charge naman daw. Tinanggap ko (di dahil sa kailangan ko rin ng pera), kundi nagstopped kasi ako kaya naghihintay lang ako ng enrolment muli ngayong june. Ang sabi ko sa kanila ay habang di pa ako nag-aaral na muli ay tatanggapin ko ang sched na gusto nila. Lalo na ngayon, talagang full time na ako doon. Parang ang hirap tuloy magpaalam pag mag-aaral na ako.
:)

hokanu
04.02.21, 12:49 AM
You have a point... those other Christian religions do sound better than the Church which Jesus and the apostles themselves founded (meaning 'us' the one-and-only United, Apostolic Catholic Church). O 'yan maybe you have an idea where this is leading to 8) Naging 'Catholic' lang tayo if only to distinguish us from the other churches that sprang up during the time of Martin Luther.

Maybe, just maybe, the music of the other churches are 'better' because they are unconsciously trying to make up for what is missing in their worship service. We Catholic Christians have the real presence of God through the bread and wine which turn into Jesus' body and blood :)

But through Bukas Palad and other Catholic groups, we Catholics are starting to realize that religious and/or spiritual songs are important too in fostering greater faith and love for God. Puede Star records, Elim, Couples for Christ (Catholic din sila kahit parang minsan they emphasize the word Christian moreo than Catholic), Blessed Sacrament Fathers (may CD din silang inilabas, but they need more help in some of their songs ;) ) ang maglabas ng albums, El Shaddai (Catholic din sila).

Tungkol sa bayad, wala rin bayad ang choir namin sa pagkanta sa simbahan (dito sa gitna ng Sucat at Alabang toll gates) pero dati may trainor kami na nagtuturo sa amin ng church songs at tumutugtog pa sa misa, na binabayaran namin. Iyon ang paraan ng paghahanap buhay niya :). Medyo steep ang price nya pero nagtanong kami sa iba at ganun din ang charge nila.

Punzi
04.02.25, 05:10 PM
Thought-provoking topic...

Basically, I think that when start to "give and count the cost" (my apologies to St. Ignatius), you missed the point in joining and/or forming a church choir.

I'd rather have a dedicated choir that does not sound good rather than a paid well-sounding but cold professional choir. It's hollow and plastic.

regards to all :)

apiOng-YPG
04.02.26, 06:30 AM
In my opinion... A well-sounding choir is not cold or hollow. The fact that they sounded good means that they really feel the music (the prayer w/in the music). If the choir doesn't sound good means that they doesn't get the "feel" of the song.

But of course... there are still choirs that sound good (technically)... pero walang PUSO.
But Filipino singers are known to sing good with "Heart". That is one reason why Filipino Choir won in international events. European Choirs are good TECHNICALLY... but they don't feel what they sing... so that means they're Hollow.

Thats my two cents... :)

Alexander
04.02.26, 08:45 AM
HEY HEY Dont get things heated up. Everybody is entitled to his opinion.

If somebody says, music is his way of living and he needs to look for a way to earn from it so be it.

If somebody says, service in a sense must not be receiving pay so be it.

If someone says a he'd rather hear a dedicated choir that does not sound good than a paid well sounding group so be it.

Or if somebody's opinion is magaling ang pinoy kase me puso sa pagkanta, please dont get out of bounce kase we're here to share points of view and not debate on it.

Nothing serious to start a spark and lets not get OFF TOPIC okay, we stick on the TOPIC of SERVICE

FROM MERRIAM-WEBSTER ONLINE
SERVICE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin servitium condition of a slave, body of slaves, from servus slave
1 a : the occupation or function of serving <in active service> b : employment as a servant <entered his service>
2 a : the work performed by one that serves <good service> b : HELP, USE, BENEFIT <glad to be of service> c : contribution to the welfare of others d : disposal for use <I'm entirely at your service>
3 a : a form followed in worship or in a religious ceremony <the burial service> b : a meeting for worship -- often used in plural <held evening services>
4 : the act of serving : as a : a helpful act <did him a service> b : useful labor that does not produce a tangible commodity -- usually used in plural <charge for professional services> c : SERVE
5 : a set of articles for a particular use <a silver tea service>
6 a : an administrative division (as of a government or business) <the consular service> b : one of a nation's military forces (as the army or navy)
7 a : a facility supplying some public demand <telephone service> <bus service> b : a facility providing maintenance and repair <television service>
8 : the materials (as spun yarn, small lines, or canvas) used for serving a rope
9 : the act of bringing a legal writ, process, or summons to notice as prescribed by law
10 : the act of copulating with a female animal
11 : a branch of a hospital medical staff devoted to a particular specialty <obstetrical service>

As you can see, SERVICE is defined in no. 1 as "the occupation or function of serving" so it really depends on your intention.

So as a matter of serving in church, it is between you and your GOD. okey

my 10 centavos. :D

hashpipe
04.02.26, 09:20 AM
I agree with Punzi. I'd rather have co-members who may not really be technically great but who are totally devoted (that includes singing with PASSION as he/she sees it as a personal prayer to GOD).

Now, apiong, I think you missed Punzi's point. He was pertaining to CHURCH CHOIRS, not chorale groups (you guys know who they are). He didn't say that "a well-sounding choir is hollow." His premise is "a PAID well-sounding (church) choir is hollow."

Oh, and it is possible for one to feel the song and yet gives a mediocre performance...that depends on his/her "singing ability."

A well-sounding choir is not cold or hollow. The fact that they sounded good means that they really feel the music (the prayer w/in the music).

European Choirs are good TECHNICALLY... but they don't feel what they sing... so that means they're Hollow.

Naguluhan ako dito. Ano ba talaga? Maybe it's better not to assume things na lang. To say that choirs in the Philippines sing with more passion than choirs in Europe is debatable.

Tama si Alex. To each his own. The only problem is, huwag gawin or palabasin na absolute truth ang kanyang sariling opinion.

apiOng-YPG
04.02.26, 05:18 PM
:) :) :)

Sorry Alex kung medyo off-topic :)

Nice point hashpipe ;)

Maybe it's better not to assume things na lang. To say that choirs in the Philippines sing with more passion than choirs in Europe is debatable.

The only problem is, huwag gawin or palabasin na absolute truth ang kanyang sariling opinion.

I think i didn't say that Filipino Choirs (or chorale or chorus) sing with more passion... We just have the Heart (Puso)...can't explain...but its not passion. And this is a fact....even International Choirs and conductors admit that they lack. (I hope I can quote those chorals and conductors...but i'll look for 'em for you hashpipe :) )

I've heard the difference between Filipino Choirs and European Choir sing the same repertoire...a lot of times. And I've heard the difference...and I'm not pertaining one particular choir group (Fil and Foreign). I've heard most of 'em (performing in the Phils)... and the Filipinos really has the same X factor ... and that is kapuso.

nargalzius
04.02.26, 05:19 PM
Wow, talagang nabuhay tong thread na to ah.

I'm not speaking for the group btw ;D

I think the term "service" is being misused here. Maybe we should just change it to INTENTIONS or whatever. Kse using the concept of "service" with regards to profit, I for one, do not see the connection between the two concepts.

True Alex has posted definitions that show different ways of interpreting service, but I still fail to see anything contrasting them with the concept of profitablity. I think the whole "service for free" in the context of the church is more of a subjective, cultural understanding and not in anyway intended to be considered a textbook definition.

Ang take ko ito: Service, as Alex said is "the occupation or function of serving". Simply put, its doing something useful for people. Wether you are paid or not doesn't negate the fact that you are rendering a service.

Service under free or paid conditions is merely a matter of preference and I guess that preference will be dictated by culture (which in our case is very much influenced by Religion), which brings about the whole give and not count the cost mindset.

Sa akin lang, its perfectly fine to discuss why we prefer free service (or not) when it comes to church activities. But we should focus more on the intention of the service, rather than claiming that the meaning of service should be similar to favor

Am I making any sense? Pati ata ako nalalabuan na hahahaha.

[hr]

As for the singing part, agree ako kina Hashpipe, subjective talaga sa iba't ibang tenga yung iba't ibang style. And we shouldn't assume anything.

Alexander
04.02.27, 12:32 AM
Well at least its becoming a healthy discussion because we all learn from the topic and not "heated ones". hahaha tawa naman kayo dyan.

Agree ako ke Carlo, its all a matter of preference example, kung si Mr C ay mag render ng free service sa church and charge the choir outside the church, who could debate him for doing so. diba (pero sample lang yun)

:D

hashpipe
04.02.27, 12:46 AM
TODO NA 'TO!!! ;D

Wala lang...commercial break lang! Haha! ;D

Koenji
04.02.27, 09:55 AM
It's almost a common knowledge naman na kapag sinabi nating "service", especially sa context ng ministry natin, and ibig sabihin ay "libre" o "gratis" ika 'nga. Dito nga when you eat sa restaurant and when the staff said that there is a "service", ibig sabihin may libreng coffee o kaya tea. And this is also true in other commercial establishments here.

Ang dapat lang siguro iwasan ay 'yung imposing our own standard when "serving". 'Yun bang attitude na "nagse-serve kami ng libre, so dapat kayo din". I think part din ng service natin ay 'yung acceptance ng need ng iba, may it financial, emotional or just personal need.

In line with that siguro ay 'yung notion na ang ultimate incentive para gumanda ang kanta ng choir ay kailangan may bayad. This is not always true. And we don't need to look further pa, dahil nand'yan na ang Bukas Palad, Himig Heswita, Hangad and even our own choir. This brings me tuloy to this question:
"Ano ba talaga ang sukatan natin upang masabi natin na effective ang isang church choir?" ;)

Ojen_G
04.02.27, 02:58 PM
Grabe!!! Ang haba ng mga replies ninyo... Commercial muna ulit...

nargalzius
04.02.27, 06:35 PM
"Ano ba talaga ang sukatan natin upang masabi natin na effective ang isang church choir?" ;)


That's a very very good question :D In the "ministry" sense, I think the answer is simply the songs, and not the choir anymore. In BP's case swerte talaga kme na we have composers/arrangers like Fr. Mano, Norman, Jandi, et all. They practically are what make BP, BP. If they were part of The [insert any name here] Choir, then it would be that choir instead of BP which will have sites and discussions like these. :D

Plus the fact there are a WHOLE lot of other excellent composers out there just waiting for their rocket to come (hahaha, halatang nanood ng Mraz concert)

Ultimately, for me talaga it's the songs, bonus nalang na magaling ang choir or something. Kse kahit naman yung mga magagaling na performance choirs kung pangit yung repertoire nila, mahihirapan din basta basta kung idadaan lang sa galing or puso.