PDA

View Full Version : Vatican Bars Use Of "Yahweh"


hokanu
08.08.25, 12:10 AM
Here's a new "Guideline":

Kung maari(?) o huwag(?) na kantahin sa Banal na Misa ang mga awit na may salitang "YAHWEH".

'Yung ibang bibliya may explanation kung bakit minsan sa Old Testament meron dun ang spelling ng Lord ay "LORD". Ito daw ay ibig sabihin ay "Yahweh" ngunit dahil sa ang pakay ng mga sumulat nung mga verses na 'yun ay bigyang "super worship and honor" si Lord, imbes na YAHWEH (na di talaga basta-basta ginagamit ng mga Hebrews) ang ginamit nung mga bible translators ay Adonai or LORD ...

Basahin nyo sa ilalim nang lubos maintindihan.
---------------------------------------------------------


from Catholic News Service August 12
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804119.htm

No 'Yahweh' in songs, prayers at Catholic Masses, Vatican rules

By Nancy Frazier O'Brien
Catholic News Service

WASHINGTON (CNS) -- In the not-too-distant future, songs such as "You Are Near," "I Will Bless Yahweh" and "Rise, O Yahweh" will no longer be part of the Catholic worship experience in the United States.

At the very least, the songs will be edited to remove the word "Yahweh" -- a name of God that the Vatican has ruled must not "be used or pronounced" in songs and prayers during Catholic Masses.

...........

"By directive of the Holy Father, in accord with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, this congregation ... deems it convenient to communicate to the bishops' conferences ... as regards the translation and the pronunciation, in a liturgical setting, of the divine name signified in the sacred Tetragrammaton," said the letter signed by Cardinal Francis Arinze and Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith, congregation prefect and secretary, respectively.

The Tetragrammaton is YHWH, the four consonants of the ancient Hebrew name for God.

"As an expression of the infinite greatness and majesty of God, it was held to be unpronounceable and hence was replaced during the reading of sacred Scripture by means of the use of an alternate name:

'Adonai,' which means 'Lord,'"

the Vatican letter said. Similarly, Greek translations of the Bible used the word

"Kyrios"

and Latin scholars translated it to

"Dominus"; both also mean Lord.

titopao
08.08.25, 06:58 PM
Hmmm....interesting, Hokanu. Pero news lang yan, meron ka bang maipoprovide na link from the Vatican's website na nagpapakita ng mismong original text ng directive nito? Para double, double sure tayo na it's official ;)

cardinal_jaf
08.08.25, 11:29 PM
This is an interesting news... I believe, the Holy Father is basing this decision on Exd 20:7 - "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain". In my personal opinion & analogy lang ((I might be off-topic na), if we are casually referring to the president as "Gloria" and not the titles "Her Excellency" or "Madam President"... di ba it somewhat shows lack of respect?

Is this the reason why the name "Yahweh" is not found in any New Testament book? If so, why was it used almost "casually" in the Old Testament? Does it mean that the people before Jesus' time were more disrespectful? Because even Jesus himself addresses God as "Eloi" and not "Yahweh".

Hehe. This news would certainly be an interesting topic for a debate. :) But sabi nga ni Titopao, let's just wait for the official letter from the Vatican.

===========================
Yahweh or Jehovah(yah-weh)
Lord, JehovahUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Yahweh occurs 6,519 times. This name is used more than any other name of God. Yahweh is first used in Gen 2:4.

Variant spellings: YHWH, Jehovah

TWOT Reference: 484a

Strong's Reference: 3068

Yahwehin the Septuagint: kurios — Lord, Master
despotês — Lord, Master, denoting the omnipotence of God (TDNT), despot, absolute ruler

Meaning and Derivation: Yahweh is the promised name of God. This name of God which (by Jewish tradition) is too holy to voice, is actually spelled "YHWH" without vowels. YHWH is referred to as the Tetragrammaton (which simply means "the four letters"). YHWH comes from the Hebrew letters: Yud, Hay, Vav, Hay. While YHWH is first used in Genesis 2, God did not reveal Himself as YHWH until Exodus 3. The modern spelling as "Yahweh" includes vowels to assist in pronunciation. Many pronounce YHWH as "Yahweh" or "Jehovah." We no longer know for certain the exact pronunciation. During the third century A.D., the Jewish people stopped saying this name in fear of contravening the commandment "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain" (Exd 20:7). As a result of this, Adonai is occasionally a substitute for YHWH. The following compound names which start with "YHWH" have been shown using "Jehovah." This is due to the common usage of "Jehovah" in the English of these compound names in the early English translations of the Bible (e.g., the Geneva Bible, the King James Version, etc.).

titopao
08.08.26, 08:29 AM
The reason I'm waiting for a Vatican statement is because the news report attributes Cardinal Francis Arinze, the current head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith (the post once held by then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger). Usually, pag may nilalabas silang mga ganitong statements, you can expect a final statement published at the Vatican website, for everyone to read, discern, analyze, criticize etc. :P Personally, interesado akong basahin yung buong nilalaman ng kung anong statement man ang ilalabas nila regarding this, I want to read the nitty-gritty details of their reasoning ;)

titopao
08.08.29, 09:14 AM
Never mind about looking for it in the Vatican website...I found something even better....

While Googling the name of the American Bishop who was often quoted in news report, I found this website (http://agaphseis.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/why-cant-catholics-say-ywh/) that has a good discussion on the pros and the cons of the said Vatican directive. It turns out that, buried in the middle of the article, is a link to a PDF file that contains:

1. the letter from the said official United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, addressed to all US Bishops (in particular, to whoever will receive a copy of the said letter). It says that attached with that letter is...

(drum roll, please ;) )

2. ...another letter, the two-page letter signed by Francis Cardinal Arinze, prefect of the COngregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Apparently, this is addressed to all the bishops' conferences in the whole world, so this means that CPCP Chairman Bishop Angel Lagdameo will soon receive a copy of Cardinal Arinze's letter :) Cardinal Arinze's letter contains:

a. a statement of the issue (whether we Catholics can prononunce the Tetragammon [4-letter name] "YHWH");
b. a historical and theological backgrounder and discussion; and
c. the now-hotly discussed issue. By now, just be reading news reports, we know that the answer to the question is "NO".

For everyone's interest I've decided to attach the said PDF file on this post, para malaman natin kung ano yung reasons why the Tetragammon "YHWH" can't be pronounced (it's a good read, btw). Hope this clarifies any issues about this. Himayin ninyo yung arguments ni Cardinal Arinze, if you must ;) And, yeah, since the other letter bears the letterhead of a Vatican congregation, this means that it's official. 8) So kung duda yung mga music ministry heads ninyo about the news regarding "YHWH", just show them this letter :)

ernanibaetiong
08.08.29, 03:24 PM
Titopao thanks sa file.

From this we can derive na:

Yahweh I know You are near is now God I know You are near right?

Hehe, parang nakikita ko nang madaming magre-react sa mga parokya hehe:)

titopao
08.08.29, 03:29 PM
Hehe, parang nakikita ko nang madaming magre-react sa mga parokya hehe:)

Yeah, nakikita ko rin na may mga magrereact pag nalaman nila yon. Kasi ilang mga kanta nga ang may "Yahweh" sa lyrics. Kaya nga naisip kong iattach na yung file na ito para sa ikabubuti ng lahat, para maipakita ninyo na galing mismo sa isang top cardinal ng Vatican (and gaya ng sabi ko, sa mismong head ng Commission on Liturgy ng lahat ng Commission on Liturgy sa buong Simbahang Katoliko) ang directive na ito. That means, unless I'm mistaken, only the Pope himself can overrule this directive (through another directive, that is :P )

I think that in other jurisdictions,

Yahweh, I know You are near

has been rewritten and sung as

O God, I know You are near

:D

ernanibaetiong
08.08.29, 03:33 PM
Para kilitiin lang kayo, hmmm pano si Bro. Mike Velarde na laging tumatawag sa pangalang Yahewh El Shaddai? Ang laking impact nito sa kanilang services and iniisip ko pa lang ang adjustment miso ni Bro. Mike sa pangangaral nya...ouch sakit sa bangs hehe. Mahihirapan sila for sure tsktsk...

lenconstantino
08.08.29, 03:36 PM
wala nang You are near...:(

titopao
08.08.29, 03:45 PM
My understanding is that the Tetragammon is not to be used only during liturgies so this means sa masses and sa mass songs. (Coming to think of it, wala naman talagang mass prayer na gumagamit ng Tetragammon, currently mga songs lang ang gumagamit nun).

Honestly, hindi clear sa akin kung extended ito outside any liturgy or liturgical text (such as Mike Velarde's references to Yahweh El Shaddai) ???

silveryellow
08.08.29, 05:04 PM
O God, I know You are near

That is how it is actually (already) written in a songbook sent to me from N. America by my cousin, I don't know what that "songbook" is actually called, but it's this book that has all the songs used in that parish for the whole year, and should only be left in the pews after mass, but for some reasons, found its way to me :D

Bok
08.09.06, 01:13 AM
Vatican Bars Use of 'Yahweh' In Catholic Churches

Francis X. Rocca
08-14-08

VATICAN CITY (RNS) Catholics at worship should neither sing nor pronounce the name of God as "Yahweh," the Vatican has said, citing the authority of both Jewish and Christian practice.

The instruction came in a June 29 letter to Catholic bishops conferences around the world from the Vatican's top liturgical body, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, by an explicit "directive" of Pope Benedict XVI.



"In recent years the practice has crept in of pronouncing the God of Israel's proper name," the letter noted, referring to the four-consonant Hebrew "Tetragrammaton," YHWH.



That name is commonly pronounced as "Yahweh," though other versions include "Jaweh" and "Yehovah." But such pronunciation violates long-standing Jewish tradition, the Vatican reminded bishops.



"As an expression of the infinite greatness and majesty of God, (the name) was held to be unpronounceable and hence was replaced during the reading of sacred Scripture by means of the use of an alternate name: `Adonai,' which means `Lord,"' the Congregation said.



That practice continued with Christianity, the letter explained, recalling the "church's tradition, from the beginning, that the sacred Tetragrammaton was never pronounced in the Christian context nor translated into any of the languages into which the Bible was translated."



Invoking a Vatican document from 2001, the Congregation reminded bishops that the name "Yahweh" in Catholic worship should be replaced by the Latin "Dominus" (Lord) or a word "equivalent in meaning" in the local language.



The Vatican's move will require changes in a number of hymns and prayers currently used in American churches, but not to the Mass itself, said the U.S. bishops' top liturgical official.



Catholic News Service quoted an Aug. 8 letter from Bishop Arthur J. Serratelli of Paterson, N.J., chairman of the U.S. bishops' Committee on Divine Worship, informing American prelates of the policy.



The Vatican's instruction, Serratelli wrote, would serve as "an encouragement to show reverence for the name of God in daily life, emphasizing the power of language as an act of devotion and worship."

***
Has the CBCP issued a directive about this already?

J O J I T
08.09.06, 09:12 AM
ilang songs na me "Yahweh" ang tatamaan nito? kakalungkot naman.

ednavaliente
08.09.06, 12:29 PM
thanks sa info bok, my mga songs nga kaming tatamaan nito.

reagan
08.09.06, 12:38 PM
Thanks for the information. Ibig sabihin, di na pwede kantahin ang You Are Near sa mass... :(

J O J I T
08.09.06, 07:30 PM
Pati nga Kanlungan tatamaan eh. pero ito ang hindi clear sa akin..


The Vatican's move will require changes in a number of hymns and prayers currently used in American churches, but not to the Mass itself, said the U.S. bishops' top liturgical official.



sana me sumagot na talagang me alam para ma-clear ito.

titopao
08.09.06, 08:20 PM
@Jojit: Kung nasundan mo yung "General Guidelines for Liturgical Music", pinag-usapan na actually yung topic na ito noon pa man :)

Yung directive na nabanggit came from a Vatican cardinal. To be precise, the Vatican directive was signed by Cardinal Francis Arinze, the head of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments. Hence, consider the directive as definitive. Sa mga hindi familiar, the Congregation for Divine Worship is the Commission on Liturgy of all Commissions on Liturgy in the world (and hence, Cardinal Arinze is the commission head of all commission heads :P )

You can find a copy of the letter reported in that news---which includes the complete text of Cardinal Arinze's letter---on this post (http://www.bukaspalad.com/board/showpost.php?p=57184&postcount=52) :)

I don't think I'll want to wait for the CBCP to issue a directive announcing this Vatican guideline because the same letter by Card. Arinze will be sent to them anyway...unless may balak silang baguhin sa mismong sinulat ni Cardinal Arinze, which is unlikely PO However, it would be nice for the CBCP to provide specific guidelines given that some songs use "Yahweh" in the lyrics :)

Just to reiterate: the directive about this prohibition refers to "liturgy", which includes the Holy Mass. As one blogger pointed out elsewhere, hindi naman talaga magkakaroon ng impact ito sa text ng Holy Mass kasi never naman daw talagang ginamit ang "Yahweh" sa kahit na anong prayer. (Of course, I tried checking missals old and new and...totoo nga :) )

J O J I T
08.09.06, 10:58 PM
Di ko nasundan titopao. at parang ayaw ko na simulang sundan. :P

kelan naman nila napagisipan na ipagbawal na? bakit naman nung panahon ni Pope John Paul II wala namang ganitong issue? o baka meron na kaya lang hindi lang binigyang pansin ni Pope John Paul?

anyway, siguraduhin lang nila makakaabot sa lahat ng choir sa buong mundo at sa lahat ng catholic sa buong mundo kasi mahirap mapagalitan sa misa pag nakanta ang songs na me Yahweh.

Bok
08.09.07, 08:24 AM
according to my friend, sa mga bagong printed songbooks from the US, pinalitan na nila ang "Yahweh" sa "You Are Near" to "My God". I'll try to ask sina Fr. Manoling and Fr. Jboy about this when i get to see them. :)

titopao
08.09.07, 08:43 AM
kelan naman nila napagisipan na ipagbawal na? bakit naman nung panahon ni Pope John Paul II wala namang ganitong issue? o baka meron na kaya lang hindi lang binigyang pansin ni Pope John Paul?

I did a search on the Vatican's website and it looks like the only times that the venerable Pope JPII ever used "Yahweh" was if it's from a Bible verse (and who are we to simply alter the Bible? :P ).

What this new directive forbids, from my understanding, is an indiscriminate use of the Tetragammon, music lyrics among others. May historical basis ito---like our Jewish brethren, the early Christians also don't explicitly mention the Tetragammon as is it considered "unpronounceable"---and our current pontiff is inclined to bring back Christianity to its roots.

As some Catholic bloggers elsewhere have mentioned, ni hindi naman talaga lumabas sa liturgical prayers (incl. the mass liturgy) yung "Yahweh", so the aim of the new directive (IMHO) was simply to make all others (music, books and literature, among others) emulate this practice.


according to my friend, sa mga bagong printed songbooks from the US, pinalitan na nila ang "Yahweh" sa "You Are Near" to "My God". I'll try to ask sina Fr. Manoling and Fr. Jboy about this when i get to see them. :)

I think for a couple of times I also saw "O God" substituted instead of "My God" :)

Bok
08.09.07, 10:08 AM
Medyo conservative lang talaga ata si Pope Benedict XVI than Pope John Paul II. I guess it's all for the best.

iganhinhin
08.09.07, 12:35 PM
hala...ang dami pa namang songs na may yahweh english at filipino :-/

Alexander
08.09.07, 01:41 PM
Pati yung Yahweh we sing sa St Michael's Mass ni RC....

titopao
08.09.08, 12:19 AM
Medyo conservative lang talaga ata si Pope Benedict XVI than Pope John Paul II. I guess it's all for the best.

That's true. Kasi, on the perspective of liturgy, andami talagang rules na ni-relax ni Pope John Paul II. John Paul set some precedents and broke some grounds that actually made some members of the clergy (Cardinals among them, and I think the then-Cardinal Ratzinger himself included) dissatisfied or unhappy or uneasy because, as it may happen sometimes, what Pope JP2 allowed actually violated the intent of the liturgy (the spirit of the law, so to speak)...syempre, dahil hindi sila yung nakaupo sa Vatican, quiet na lang sila. That was one of the reasons why the 2005 Papal conclave was very much anticipated, knowing what legacy JP2 left and what needs to be undone or corrected, if any. Personally, I wasn't at all surprised that this recebt directive came out, given this background :P

herald
08.09.08, 10:06 AM
aba.. nabanggit ko ito ito sa music ministry sa amin,reactions are different, pero kailangang sundin... pwede namang palitan yung "Yahweh" if composers will do it themselves (revision), para magamit pa rin sa Liturgy, pero I don't know if they will do ti...:)

ednavaliente
08.09.08, 05:34 PM
personally, ok sa 'kin 'to, even in our family, we cannot just call our parents by their given name without being disrespectful, mas lalo na siguro kay Lord. opinion ko lang.

J O J I T
08.09.08, 06:48 PM
kaya siguro mahal na mahal ng tao si Pope JPII. Alam nya lang kung ano ang mas importante para sa mga tao. Hindi nya binibigyang pansin ang mga bagay na hindi naman magpapalapit sa mga tao sa Diyos, Yahweh, Lord, God o ano man. :)

Alexander
08.09.09, 06:16 AM
I did a search on the Vatican's website and it looks like the only times that the venerable Pope JPII ever used "Yahweh" was if it's from a Bible verse (and who are we to simply alter the Bible? ).

What this new directive forbids, from my understanding, is an indiscriminate use of the Tetragammon, music lyrics among others. May historical basis ito---like our Jewish brethren, the early Christians also don't explicitly mention the Tetragammon as is it considered "unpronounceable"---and our current pontiff is inclined to bring back Christianity to its roots.

Which reminds me of the song by EPH (one of my favourite BTW)... O Yahweh Ko... a song extracted from the Book of Psalms sa Magandang Balita Biblia...

Paano kung yun mismo ang nakasulat sa Bible at ginawa mo lang awitin (which is in most cases is what's happening)... you can then be charged of changing what was written in the Bible... or you can accuse the Philippine Bible Society of writing a wrong translation....

My two cents..

Alexander
08.09.09, 06:44 AM
That's true. Kasi, on the perspective of liturgy, andami talagang rules na ni-relax ni Pope John Paul II. John Paul set some precedents and broke some grounds that actually made some members of the clergy (Cardinals among them, and I think the then-Cardinal Ratzinger himself included) dissatisfied or unhappy or uneasy because, as it may happen sometimes, what Pope JP2 allowed actually violated the intent of the liturgy (the spirit of the law, so to speak)...syempre, dahil hindi sila yung nakaupo sa Vatican, quiet na lang sila. That was one of the reasons why the 2005 Papal conclave was very much anticipated, knowing what legacy JP2 left and what needs to be undone or corrected, if any. Personally, I wasn't at all surprised that this recebt directive came out, given this background :P

Just to catch one point titopao...
...syempre, dahil hindi sila yung nakaupo sa Vatican, quiet na lang sila.

It doesn't really mean na dapat sila tumahimik about this but they have to recognize the fact (as far as Catholic Theology is concerned, it is a DOGMA) that Pope's Infallibility... so whatever the Pope, whoever was seated, whenever it was decreed... they have to follow and obey.

Now the use of "Yahweh" in Liturgy has been decree... it must be obeyed.

Kaya Pope John Paul II, as far as Infallibility is concerned; did not "set precedents", did not "broke some grounds" nor did not "violate the Liturgy". What he did actually revolutionized the Liturgy and made it more lively.

My two cents ;)


Reference:
CCC (Cathecism of the Catholic Church) Article 891


891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... the infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM#$16P) When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM#$16Q) and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM#$16R) This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM#$16S)

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Support_for_infallibility_in_S cripture

J O J I T
08.09.09, 07:05 AM
natatandaan ko din na merong mga gospels na binabasa from the Bible na merong salitang Yahweh.

Tao lang talaga siguro, paiba-iba, me tinatama, meron ding minamali na ang tama. kung sino ang tama at mali di ko alam.

saka sino ba nagsabing hindi ma-pronounce pangalan ng Diyos? talaga bang hindi?? ano kaya purpose nya para gawin nyang mahirap bigkasin pangalan nya? meron ako barkada pio pangalan ginawa nyang pio kasi mahirap bigkasin ng mga kaibigan nya real name nya. :D ang tanong, mali ba talaga ang Yahweh?

Milliardo
08.09.09, 05:41 PM
Hhmm..this is rather strange. One, it is based on the Old Testament, and more specifically on the Mosaic Law, yet Christ Himself has already freed us from most of the Mosaic Law. Two, if that's the case, then we shouldn't even spell God, but use G-d as the Jews do. Is the Catholic Church Jewish now?

titopao
08.09.09, 05:57 PM
Is the Catholic Church Jewish now?

You know...that's what also made me wonder, too. And the other American Catholic bloggers have asked exactly just that :P

Alexander
08.09.09, 08:15 PM
I am not siding in favour or the Jewish people or the Jewish faith. It's just the Jewish are the chosen people of God (cf. Deuteronomy 7 and 14)

Also, God made a covenant to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
"I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." (Gen 22:15-18 )


In the New Testament, Jesus said "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Mt 15:24)

There is also an explicit instruction of Jesus to the Disciples
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' (Mt 10:5-7)

In the time of the Apostle, Paul speak of Peter as the Apostle to the Jews "For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews....(Gal 2:8)

My opinion, the Church honors its roots by looking after the tradition of the Jews.

Though I must agree that Christ came so that we maybe freed from the Law not to abolish it but to fulfill it..

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Mt 5: 16-17)


In summary (again my opinion), God sent Christ first for the Lost Sheep of Israel (God's chosen people), Then Jesus sent the Apostles pa rin to look for the Lost Sheep of Israel, Pero the Jews refused to believe in the Christ... kaya Jesus sent Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles (tayong di mga Jew). Kaya tayo naging mga Kristiyano...

Kaya ganun din ang patingin ng Simbahan sa Bayang Pinili ng Diyos, dahil merong Prophecy about them (I have to find my reference on this muna) about the endtimes....

Dyan muna.... bitin hehehe

pat111
08.09.10, 02:42 PM
Hhmm..this is rather strange. One, it is based on the Old Testament, and more specifically on the Mosaic Law, yet Christ Himself has already freed us from most of the Mosaic Law. Two, if that's the case, then we shouldn't even spell God, but use G-d as the Jews do. Is the Catholic Church Jewish now?

Glad to see you here Milliardo (ako si patrick457 dun sa CAF). :)

As for the Catholic Church being Jewish, not really; it's just that the custom of using the Tetragrammaton in the Liturgy just doesn't really have any precedent in the Church, Western and Eastern dahil nga walang nakakaalam ng correct pronunciation ng YHWH (the form 'Yahweh' is just guesswork, and in my opinion an educated one).

In my opinion, kung tayong mga tao ay hindi natin tinatawag ang mga tatay natin ng 'Emilio' o 'George'; tinatawag natin silang 'Ama', 'Tatay' o kaya'y 'Dad', shouldn't we at least extend that respect to God our Father?

God's name is holy and thus should be respected. Not to the level that the more reverent Jews practice said reverence mind you, but with respect fitting to Him nonetheless.

Kahit na hindi na pwede makanta ang 'Yahweh you are near', pwede namang sigurong palitan ng 'Adonai', 'Kyrios' o kaya 'LORD God'. :p

titopao
08.09.10, 02:48 PM
As for the Catholic Church being Jewish, not really; it's just that the custom of using the Tetragrammaton in the Liturgy just doesn't really have any precedent in the Church, Western and Eastern dahil nga walang nakakaalam ng correct pronunciation ng YHWH (the form 'Yahweh' is just guesswork, and in my opinion an educated one).

Very well said :) I think some of us here may have heard of the "Yahweh/Jehovah" debate...that is, which of these is the more correct pronunciation.

For additional readings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh#Historical_overview

pat111
08.09.10, 02:55 PM
Very well said :) I think some of us here may have heard of the "Yahweh/Jehovah" debate...that is, which of these is the more correct pronunciation.

For additional readings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh#Historical_overview

Trivia: One of the persons who knew the true pronunciation of YHWH ay iyung (Jewish) High Priest sa Jerusalem, dahil sinasambit niya iyung Pangalan when he recites the Priestly Blessing over the people (in fact, saying God's name is limited to the Temple precinct, and even then only by the priests who knew the correct pronunciation and with caution).

However, in the final years of the Temple of Jerusalem (before its destruction in 70 AD), it is believed that the pronunciation of the Name itself is "swallowed", i.e. 'garbled' (pronounced but not distinctly) by the High Priest.

The Priestly blessing (cf. Numbers 6:24-26):

"May YHWH (the LORD) bless you and keep you.
May YHWH make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you.
May YHWH turn towards you and give you peace."

J O J I T
08.09.10, 03:29 PM
ang hindi ko lang maintindihan eh ano ba ang nasa pangalan ng ating Diyos na hindi pwedeng bigkasin?? sorry ha pero hindi naman Siya si Voldemort para hindi bigkasin.

Sa bait ng Diyos sa atin at dahil talaga namang mabait Siya, sigurado ako na kung makakausap natin sya, sasabihin nya sa atin kung paano bigkasin pangalan Niya. At depende kung ano intention sa pagbigkas ng Yahweh, hindi naman mababaw ang ating Panginoon para masaktan sya sa pagtawag natin sa kanya ng Yahweh instead na "dad".. palagay nyo?

mas mahirap kung hindi natin ginagawa ang nais ni Yahweh. baka mas mainsulto pa sya sa atin kung tawagin natin syang Ama.

my one cent :D

titopao
08.09.10, 04:24 PM
I did a rereading of the directive and...

ang hindi ko lang maintindihan eh ano ba ang nasa pangalan ng ating Diyos na hindi pwedeng bigkasin?? sorry ha pero hindi naman Siya si Voldemort para hindi bigkasin.

First...the directive was specific to liturgies. Hindi (ata) covered nun ang uses of "Yahweh" outside the liturgy...or, to put it the other way around, the directive addressed the issue only with regard to liturgy and liturgical texts, nothing was said about any use outside the liturgy. There are some precedents and some rationales were provided in most of Cardinal Arinze's letter.

For the benefit of discussion, here are the explicit directives given by Cardinal Arinze on behalf of the Congregation for Divine Worship. Boldfaces are mine:

II - Directives

In the light of what has been expounded, the following directives are to be observed:

1) In liturgical celebrations, in songs and prayers the name of God in the form of the tetragrammaton YHWH is neither to be used or pronounced.

2) For the translation of the Biblical text in modern languages, destined for the liturgical usage of the Church, what is already prescribed by n. 41 of the Instruction Liturgiam authenticam is to be followed; that is, the divine tetragrammaton is to be rendered by the equivalent of Adonai/Kyrios: "Lord", "Signore", "Seigneur", "Herr", "Senor", etc.

3) In translating, in the liturgical context, texts in which are present, one after the other, either the Hebrew term Adonai or the tetragrammaton YHWH, Adonai is to be translated "Lord" and the form "God" is to be used for the tetragrammaton YHWH, similar to what happens in the Greek translation of the Septuagint and in the Latin translation of the Vulgate.

Take note that the words "liturgy" and "liturgical" appears in all three directives. Btw, here's a ZIP'ped copy of the directive, for those who want to read the gory details:
http://www.bukaspalad.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=1630&d=1219971870

Additional info: in the same directive, the aforementioned section n.41 or Liturgiam authentiam was also quoted. It says that

in accordance with immemorial tradition, which indeed is evident in the above-mentioned "Septuagint" version, the name of almighty God expressed by the Hebrew tetragrammaton and rendered in Latin by the wod Dominus, is to be rendered in any given vernacular by a word equivalent in meaning.

Regardless of religion, the word "liturgy" implies a set of customs and also a set of rites that are formal (i.e. follows a set of form) and traditional (follow a certain set of traditions). (Even those sects who openly say that they don't have a "liturgy" but follow a certain pattern of worship, however informal, is still said to have its own form of liturgy.) In this case, the Congregation for Divine Worship acknowledges that there's something that needs to be corrected. It wasn't always the case that Christians in history, way back from the Apostles themselves, could freely pronounce the tetragrammaton on linguistic and theological grounds; but somewhere along the line some people mistakenly thought that the Church may have changed its stance, and did away with that tradition on their own---this is what the directive is trying to correct. I find no reason to object; just because people do something for a long time doesn't mean that it's OK or a good thing. (To use an analogy: Just because you see people jaywalking/copying/[insert your misdemeanor] on exams on the streets doesn't mean that jaywalking/copying on exams/[insert your misdemeanor] is acceptable.)

Hence, we could probably use "Yahweh" in an informal setting like this forum. But per the directive, which aims to bring us back to Christian tradition, we can't use it in liturgy such as mass prayers or mass songs...because by doing so, we are honoring the fact that our early forebears themselves recognized that the tetragrammaton was too holy to be pronounced by human beings, and saying "Lord" instead is a more acceptable thing to do in formal worship as embodied in the liturgy. Doon lang naman naghihigpit in the same manner that singing masses a la RnB, hiphop, alternative or rap styles, or doing a breakdance instead of a liturgical dance, or altering the designated readings or the responsorial psalm for a particular day, is never permitted in the Holy Mass. Like what I've mentioned, "Yahweh" never appears anyway as part of a mass prayer, only in the readings where it appears (and then again, mostly in the Old Testament texts).

Just my big, big two cents 8)

J O J I T
08.09.10, 04:48 PM
Question ko ngayon, since dati hindi masyado binigyan pansin ng dating pope ang issue na ito, paano kung ang pumalit na pope kay Pope Benedict 16 e sabihin ulit na ok lang gamitin ang Yahweh....ay sus...ano na ulit mangyayari??

bawiin ko na 1 cent ko.. :D

titopao
08.09.10, 05:13 PM
Question ko ngayon, since dati hindi masyado binigyan pansin ng dating pope ang issue na ito, paano kung ang pumalit na pope kay Pope Benedict 16 e sabihin ulit na ok lang gamitin ang Yahweh....ay sus...ano na ulit mangyayari??

Dadaan pa rin yon sa Congregation for Divine Worship, since yun ang hawak nila. But I don't think something like what you have in mind might happen soon immediately when Pope Benedict's successor assumes office, kasi I'm sure na hindi lang naman si Pope Benedict and si Cardinal Arinze ang involved sa directive na yon, other bishops, theologians and liturgists may have been consulted as well :)

J O J I T
08.09.10, 05:38 PM
sure ka dyan ha...:) kasi baka pag pinalitan na yung Yahweh you are near at gawing, YHWH you are near eh biglang payagan ulit pag gamit ng Yahweh...mahirap yun ah...babaguhin ulit voicing...:wow::terrified:

pat111
08.09.10, 06:58 PM
Question ko ngayon, since dati hindi masyado binigyan pansin ng dating pope ang issue na ito, paano kung ang pumalit na pope kay Pope Benedict 16 e sabihin ulit na ok lang gamitin ang Yahweh....ay sus...ano na ulit mangyayari??

bawiin ko na 1 cent ko.. :D

Dahil kumbaga e magkaiba ang emphasis nina Pope John Paul II at ni Pope Benedict XVI.

Pope John Paul II was a great theologian, but IMHO he did not really put much emphasis on liturgical matters as Pope Benedict XVI did. The present Pope is continuing what his predecessor have left, kumbaga (halimbawa, sinasabi na JPII planned to 'free' the Tridentine Mass, however he died before he did so; it was Pope Benedict who picked up the job, so to speak).

A lot of people expected the next pope to be a sort of a 'carbon copy' of Pope John Paul II, however it becomes clear that our present Holy Father is going in a different direction.

Milliardo
08.09.11, 05:50 AM
Glad to see you here Milliardo (ako si patrick457 dun sa CAF). :)

As for the Catholic Church being Jewish, not really; it's just that the custom of using the Tetragrammaton in the Liturgy just doesn't really have any precedent in the Church, Western and Eastern dahil nga walang nakakaalam ng correct pronunciation ng YHWH (the form 'Yahweh' is just guesswork, and in my opinion an educated one).

Hhmm..I wouldn't know about the precedent stuff, but then the point is that the Mosaic Law was specifically made for the Jews; Paul made it clear that Christians are exempt from most of Mosaic Law. Of course, which parts of Mosaic Law are we exempt from would be a long one, but I would think saying Yahweh would be one of them, since this has never been an issue before.

In my opinion, kung tayong mga tao ay hindi natin tinatawag ang mga tatay natin ng 'Emilio' o 'George'; tinatawag natin silang 'Ama', 'Tatay' o kaya'y 'Dad', shouldn't we at least extend that respect to God our Father?

We do extend that respect many times over--at Mass, in our prayers, etc. We do call him Father, after all.

pat111
08.09.11, 07:11 AM
Hhmm..I wouldn't know about the precedent stuff, but then the point is that the Mosaic Law was specifically made for the Jews; Paul made it clear that Christians are exempt from most of Mosaic Law. Of course, which parts of Mosaic Law are we exempt from would be a long one, but I would think saying Yahweh would be one of them, since this has never been an issue before.

Milliardo,

While Paul did teach that we as Christians are no longer bound to a great part of the Jewish law, he did not say that thus, YHWH is now fair game. YHWH does not even appear in the New Testament; instead, the word Kyrios is used as in the Septuagint. There is no manuscript of the NT that has YHWH in it instead of Kyrios.

Even so, the early Church did love the name of Jesus, which does mean 'YHWH saves' or 'YHWH is salvation'.

It has never been an issue before since, well, YHWH began to be used outright only recently; the Church has never used them to the same degree as we do now in her Liturgies.

Milliardo
08.09.11, 07:20 AM
Milliardo,

While Paul did teach that we as Christians are no longer bound to a great part of the Jewish law, he did not say that thus, YHWH is now fair game.

To be fair with Paul, he did not exactly enumerate which would apply and not apply for Christians; the early Church made that decision over the course of time.

It has never been an issue before since, well, YHWH began to be used outright only recently; the Church has never used them to the same degree as we do now in her Liturgies.

Which should tell us that it doesn't see any harm in using it; even in the NAB the name Yahweh is used in the Old Testament. This would then be problematic as well when reading, say, the Psalms where the Name is used.

ernanibaetiong
08.09.11, 07:58 AM
In my opinion, kung tayong mga tao ay hindi natin tinatawag ang mga tatay natin ng 'Emilio' o 'George'; tinatawag natin silang 'Ama', 'Tatay' o kaya'y 'Dad', shouldn't we at least extend that respect to God our Father?

God's name is holy and thus should be respected.

Sa bait ng Diyos sa atin at dahil talaga namang mabait Siya, sigurado ako na kung makakausap natin sya, sasabihin nya sa atin kung paano bigkasin pangalan Niya. At depende kung ano intention sa pagbigkas ng Yahweh, hindi naman mababaw ang ating Panginoon para masaktan sya sa pagtawag natin sa kanya ng Yahweh instead na "dad"..

We do extend that respect many times over--at Mass, in our prayers, etc. We do call him Father, after all.

Agree ako sa lahat ng points na ito.

One thing I'd like to add, there's much fuss about this directive but IMO we shouldn't really put much of an issue on this, just like in most matters in life there are rules, and this is just an addition to the rule (or more appropriately a "return" to the rule).

Even if we are freed from Jewish Laws by the arrival of Christ on earth, we shouldn't run like faithless fools, should we?

It is just like saying "don't dip your hostia in adobo sauce"-we really don't do that in the Mass right? Yes, because those are the rules and we respect the rules. More importanly, we respect our Trinitarian God:)

Alexander
08.09.11, 09:31 AM
In my opinion, kung tayong mga tao ay hindi natin tinatawag ang mga tatay natin ng 'Emilio' o 'George'; tinatawag natin silang 'Ama', 'Tatay' o kaya'y 'Dad', shouldn't we at least extend that respect to God our Father?



It depends on what culture you have... tayong mga pinoy has that culture pero we do not have to be too sentimental on the culture. Sa western world where they use first name basis to address their in-laws or parents, but that does not mean their being disrespectful. So I would suggest, don't get to attached sa culture, kundi iisipin mo bastos ang ibang nation sa ginagawa nila.

My two cents.

pat111
08.09.11, 09:45 AM
Which should tell us that it doesn't see any harm in using it; even in the NAB the name Yahweh is used in the Old Testament. This would then be problematic as well when reading, say, the Psalms where the Name is used.

The NAB? Which edition? :|

Just me two cents (parang lahat na lang tayo e nagbibigayan ng 2 cents; pag totoong pera iyon e yayaman na tayo :D), but YHWH was rendered as 'Kyrios' in the Septuagint and 'Dominus' in the Latin Vulgate (the ones originally used in the Liturgy). Many English translations of the Bible followed suit in rendering YHWH as 'LORD' until recently (such as the Jerusalem Bible, for instance).

EDIT: Meron akong nakitang article sa internet about the use of Yahweh in Church Songs (http://www.americancatholicpress.org/Father_Gilligan_Yahweh.html).

Coolwaters
08.09.11, 03:33 PM
My understanding is that the Tetragammon is not to be used only during liturgies so this means sa masses and sa mass songs.

Honestly, hindi clear sa akin kung extended ito outside any liturgy or liturgical text (such as Mike Velarde's references to Yahweh El Shaddai) ???

Parang naguguluhan din ako, kasi in the first directive it says "In liturgical celebrations, in songs and prayers the name of God in the form of the tetragrammaton YHWH is neither to be used or pronounced".

The sentence is structured such that it puts "liturgical celebrations" and "songs and prayers" in parallel by the use of the preposition "in"...

In my own understanding, the sentence structure specifies the distinction. As such, the ban is not limited during liturgies (mass and mass songs) but also in prayers and songs outside of the liturgy.

This would be in consonance to para.3 of the expose portion which states that "remaining faithful to the Church's tradition, from the beginning, the tetragrammaton was never pronounced in the Christian context..."

As such, I would tend to think that this ban is a universal cloak, for all use of the tetragrammaton.

Parang kasama dito ang group ni Bro. Mike...

Any other clarificatory thoughts? :)

Coolwaters
08.09.11, 03:45 PM
It doesn't really mean na dapat sila tumahimik about this but they have to recognize the fact (as far as Catholic Theology is concerned, it is a DOGMA) that Pope's Infallibility... so whatever the Pope, whoever was seated, whenever it was decreed... they have to follow and obey.


Comment lang ako kuya Alex, medyo slightly off topic, but IMHO not all the decrees of the Pope are infallible, otherwise bakit kailangang baguhin kung patay na siya?

The concept of papal infallibity applies to declarations made ex cathedra, done in the same teaching capacity as that of Peter... As such, papal teachings proclaimed ex cathedra form part of Catholic dogma (such as the assumption of Mary)... As far as I know, JPII has not used this papal capacity. :)

Coolwaters
08.09.11, 03:59 PM
Nang mapost ko na ang mga replies ko, saka ko pa lang napansin na mahaba na pala nag thread na ito... :)

Nagbibigayan pa ng mga sentimo... :ecstatic:

Ganda ng discussions... :D

titopao
08.09.11, 04:32 PM
Parang naguguluhan din ako, kasi in the first directive it says "In liturgical celebrations, in songs and prayers the name of God in the form of the tetragrammaton YHWH is neither to be used or pronounced".

The sentence is structured such that it puts "liturgical celebrations" and "songs and prayers" in parallel by the use of the preposition "in"...

My understanding of the directive is that, generally, in prayers and songs to be used in the liturgy. For one, hindi covered nito yung mga, say, books about the Bible or the Bible itself although, according to some definitions, liturgy is a "collective prayer", and religious songs are also considered prayers to some extent :)

Comment lang ako kuya Alex, medyo slightly off topic, but IMHO not all the decrees of the Pope are infallible, otherwise bakit kailangang baguhin kung patay na siya?

The concept of papal infallibity applies to declarations made ex cathedra, done in the same teaching capacity as that of Peter... As such, papal teachings proclaimed ex cathedra form part of Catholic dogma (such as the assumption of Mary)... As far as I know, JPII has not used this papal capacity. :)

Just to clarify---actually, you already provided the answer to your question :) Infallibility does not refer to "decrees" but to the actual act of teaching with regard to faith and morals. So tama ka dun on the one hand , not all decrees of the Pope are infallible because infallibility does not cover all of the Pope's decrees. (Pope Benedict's decree about his writings being copyrighted by the Liberia Editrice Vaticana, for example, is not covered by infallibility. But his encyclicals are.) (Sorry to disagree to some extent, Alex...while it may be true that we Catholics should obey, papal infallibility is not one of the reasons for doing so.)

Infallibility also does not guarantee that a pope will become automatically impeccable (free of sin); unfortunately, this is what some people mistakenly believe to be.

IMO, I don't really know if Pope JPII relaxed such "prohibition" (if I can properly use that word) on using "Yahweh" in the liturgy, in prayers and in songs, because I don't think he even said/wrote something to that effect. There is no such "infallible" teaching by Pope JPII that Pope BXVI needed to have changed because, to begin with, as you've mentioned, Pope JPII hadn't invoked infallibility (if at all), and popes aren't required to. To me, what this directive does is to (re)affirm something and propose some concrete steps to enforce a solution for a concern regarding matters of faith. While it is true that Cardinal Arinze signed this directive, keep in mind na hindi basta ipa-publish yon nang hindi dumadaan sa Santo Papa, as with most publications, directives, decrees and other important papers issued or disclosed by the Vatican 8)

General references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vatican_Council - for an historical background on how the doctrine of infallibility was defined
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility - general info. about papal infallibility

J O J I T
08.09.11, 06:19 PM
so ano na sagot? ano na tama? di pa din pwede ang Yahweh kasi dapat hindi ma-pronounce ang pangalan ni God? eto tanong, e bakit si Jesus, pwede nating tawaging Jesus? Siya din ba ang Yahweh o YHWH diba? sorry ha, mahina ako sa IMHO o dogma or kung ano man. but am sure, madami pa ang ibang Catholics na hindi rin alam ang nangyayaring ito. baka nga ibang pari eh hindi rin alam e...paano nalang yung mga me hindi alam na ganito na pala nangyayari? sinabi na din ba ng Vatican kung ano kasalanan kung pinagpatuloy ang pag gamit? kailangan bang i-confess?

hay...so ano na napagkasunduan? di nyo na ba gagamitin ang pangalang Yahweh? Parang di maganda pakingan "O God, I know you are near" :(

pat111
08.09.11, 06:43 PM
so ano na sagot? ano na tama? di pa din pwede ang Yahweh kasi dapat hindi ma-pronounce ang pangalan ni God? eto tanong, e bakit si Jesus, pwede nating tawaging Jesus? Siya din ba ang Yahweh o YHWH diba? sorry ha, mahina ako sa IMHO o dogma or kung ano man. but am sure, madami pa ang ibang Catholics na hindi rin alam ang nangyayaring ito. baka nga ibang pari eh hindi rin alam e...paano nalang yung mga me hindi alam na ganito na pala nangyayari? sinabi na din ba ng Vatican kung ano kasalanan kung pinagpatuloy ang pag gamit? kailangan bang i-confess?

hay...so ano na napagkasunduan? di nyo na ba gagamitin ang pangalang Yahweh? Parang di maganda pakingan "O God, I know you are near" :(

I think that it only applies to liturgical contexts; pwede pa rin naman sigurong i-pronounce ang YHWH in private situations; it's not as if tatamaan ka ng kidlat o kaya e ihuhulog sa bangin o kaya e aarestuhin pag sinabi mo ang YHWH. Ang hinihigpitan lang e ang paggamit ng totoong ngalan ng Diyos sa banal na liturhiya.

Kasalanan siyempre pag ginamit mo ang pangalan ng Diyos (o kaya ni Hesus o ng mga Banal) in an inappropriate context, such as swearing. Pero hindi naman siguro magiging mabigat na kasalanan iyon kapag hindi alam ng pari o kaya ng choir na hindi na pala pwede gamitin ang YHWH. They have only committed an innocent 'violation of the rules' if they did not know about this new directive. It's not like the Church would hunt down those who use God's Name in liturgical contexts if they are ignorant of the new directive.

As for kung bakit pwede pa rin ang 'Jesus' or 'Christ' o kaya 'Holy Spirit', that is because the proper noun for the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity is a known appellation, being revealed by Gabriel to Mary as the Name to be given to her Son; whilst with the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete), Jesus Himself had EXPLICITLY professed this identity of the Third Person as “the one who would come” ( cf Jn 14:26, 15:26). The proper names of the abovementioned Persons of the Trinity were obviously indicated as such.

But in the case of YHWH, we do not know how the Name originally sounded like. Even if the pronunciation 'Yahweh' is an educated guess, it's still just that, a guess; we could not be entirely sure how the Jews may have pronounced the Name, since they kept no records about it (Hebrew was originally written only with consonants; it is only later that the vowel points were introduced). We're stuck with attempting to reconstruct it.

All we have are four letters with no vowels, as typical of Hebrew manner of writing. How can we actually determine that 'Yahweh' is really the Name of God our Father? YHWH still embodies the genuine way on how God had revealed Himself to Israel by name, and it would be a rather radical (and irreverent) assumption on our part if we should dare incorporate something that may entail losing the Name’s sacredness.

Suppose that the Church did not release this document, and later scholars had finally reconstructed the Name accurately and it differed from the form 'Yahweh'. Hindi ba't parang mas nakakahiya na all this time mali pala ang ginagamit nating pronunciation ng pangalan ng Diyos?

Mas mabuti na, IMHO na inilabas ito because the theory that YHWH is pronounced as 'Yahweh', while having convincing arguments for it and is accepted by the majority, is still a theory that can be proven or disproven any given day if a strong evidence against it surfaces. The Church, in my opinion, saves us from the painstaking task of having to 'update' to the 'more correct' pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton every now and then by not having the Name used in the liturgy at all, just like She had for a greater part of Her history.

As an aside, siguro e maganda pag naglabas pa ang Vatican ng isang dokumento emphasizing that using Jesus' or the Saint's names as swear words ('Oh my God' o 'Jesus Christ!' halimbawa) does qualify as blasphemy...joke lang. :D

ernanibaetiong
08.09.11, 07:47 PM
di nyo na ba gagamitin ang pangalang Yahweh? Parang di maganda pakingan "O God, I know you are near" :(

Kami po hindi na since ito ang utos. Agree din po ako na hindi maganda sa pandinig yung revision ng You are Near so I won't let my choir use this and any other song na may Yahweh, I'd rather keep the integrity of those songs and wait (maybe hopelessly) if another revision to this will be made.

Ang natutunan ko po sa lahat ng ito-tanggapin ko ang kahinaan ng tao, hindi natin kayang bigkasin ang YHWH:(

ednavaliente
08.09.12, 08:47 AM
Kami po hindi na since ito ang utos. Agree din po ako na hindi maganda sa pandinig yung revision ng You are Near so I won't let my choir use this and any other song na may Yahweh, I'd rather keep the integrity of those songs and wait (maybe hopelessly) if another revision to this will be made.

Ang natutunan ko po sa lahat ng ito-tanggapin ko ang kahinaan ng tao, hindi natin kayang bigkasin ang YHWH:(

ako rin ernani...ipaaalam ko na sa choir namin 'to. maybe we simply are not worthy to say the Lord's proper name...

Koenji
08.09.12, 09:52 AM
Parang di maganda pakingan "O God, I know you are near" :(


Hindi nga. Dapat "LORD, I know You are Near".

Now, 'yung songs like "Yahweh, the Faithful One" at Honti's "O Yahweh Ko" ang sa tingin ko'y medyo mahirap. Any suggestions? :)

Alexander
08.09.12, 10:10 AM
Which reminds me of the song by EPH (one of my favourite BTW)... O Yahweh Ko... a song extracted from the Book of Psalms sa Magandang Balita Biblia...

Paano kung yun mismo ang nakasulat sa Bible at ginawa mo lang awitin (which is in most cases is what's happening)... you can then be charged of changing what was written in the Bible... or you can accuse the Philippine Bible Society of writing a wrong translation....

My two cents..

Koenji,

Actually yan ang tanong ko sa post ko dito
http://www.bukaspalad.com/board/showpost.php?p=58024&postcount=28

Paano if the song was composed based on the text from the Bible like O Yahweh Ko...

That will only mean...
1. Hindi payagan ang kantang may YAHWEH straight from the bible or
2. Sisihin ang Publisher ng bible for using YAHWEH.

titopao
08.09.12, 10:24 AM
Koenji,

Actually yan ang tanong ko sa post ko dito
http://www.bukaspalad.com/board/showpost.php?p=58024&postcount=28

Paano if the song was composed based on the text from the Bible like O Yahweh Ko...

That will only mean...
1. Hindi payagan ang kantang may YAHWEH straight from the bible or
2. Sisihin ang Publisher ng bible for using YAHWEH.

Ang understanding ko is kung lalabas sa readings for the day, baka (and, let me emphasize, baka) payagan pa since nobody is allowed to change what's on the reading...I mean, will anyone have the guts to alter the Bible? :)

Pero yung songs and composed prayers...kumbaga sa mundo ng copyrights, derivative works na lahat yun. Which means that may human intervention sa paggawa ng songs. That is something that the Vatican can regulate in order to cnoform to directives and theological guidelines..

With regard to the translations of the Bibles that use "Yahweh", problema na ng mga publishers yon, let the Vatican settle that or take necessary actions on it :P

Koenji
08.09.12, 10:31 AM
Sorry, Alex hindi ko nabasa ang nakaraang post mo. :(


Siguro, kailangan ng masusing pag-aaral at mahabang deliberasyon ang nararapat gawin ng mga kinauukulan sa awiting "O Yahweh Ko" at iba pang awit na may katulad na kalagayan.

At kung anuman ang kanilang magiging pasya ay dapat lang tayong sumunod kahit na ito pa'y tuluyan nang pagbabawal ng pag-awit ng mga ito sa loob ng Liturhiya.


Dalawang yen ko lang .

J O J I T
08.09.12, 04:51 PM
maybe we simply are not worthy to say the Lord's proper name...

Sa aking palagay at ito din gusto ko isipin, hindi naman ganung ang Diyos para masamain kung tawagin Siyang Yahweh lalo na kung ang intention mo ay hindi masama.

Maiba ako, ano nga kaya ang sagot ng mga composers dito sa issue na ito? Example nalang ang Kanlungan na tagalog version ng You Are Near. Lyrics by Mr. Onofre Pagsanghan at Music by Fr. Mano. Me salitang Yahweh ang koro nito. Maganda yung kanta.

BP, kakantahin niyo pa ba ito sa inyong mga concerts? :(

Alexander
08.09.15, 08:38 AM
Sorry, Alex hindi ko nabasa ang nakaraang post mo. :(

Dalawang yen ko lang .

Koenji,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Natabunan lang yung post ko pero I was happy that there was somebody like you to reinforce my stand ;)

titopao
08.09.15, 08:57 AM
Maiba ako, ano nga kaya ang sagot ng mga composers dito sa issue na ito?

The most that they can do (IMO) is to comply and do the necessary revisions that they need to do. Walang good reason para "sagutin" or "mag-react" dun sa directive ng Vatican as the directive is, in essence, much like a law or a command, in the same way that no one can't change the directives regarding, say, the Holy Mass (as stated in the General Instruction on the Roman Missal).

Alexander
08.09.15, 10:00 AM
Kung ako naman ang kompositor... lagi ko na lang kukunin ang texto mula sa Bibliya para di ako maparatangan na sumusuway sa direktiba

http://www.catholic.org/search_site.php?search_term=Yahweh&qqq=Bible

Base sa "link" na yan mula sa Jerusalem Bible, ang opisyal ng translation ng simbahang Katoliko, merong 5471 "matches" ang Pangalan ng Panginoon na "Yahweh", so ibig sabihin, di ka magkakamali na gamitin ang Pangalan ng Panginoon Yahweh kung magmumula sa Bibliya. :)

value
Update: Some reading reference from the Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6291

titopao
08.09.15, 10:07 AM
Base sa "link" na yan mula sa Jerusalem Bible, ang opisyal ng translation ng simbahang Katoliko, merong 5471 "matches" ang Pangalan ng Panginoon na "Yahweh", so ibig sabihin, di ka magkakamali na gamitin ang Pangalan ng Panginoon Yahweh kung magmumula sa Bibliya. :)

Alex, the Vatican uses the New American Bible (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_INDEX.HTM) translation, so I don't think the Jerusalem Bible is the "official" English version...otherwise, they would have put up the Jerusalem Bible and not the NAB on its own website :)

Alexander
08.09.15, 10:35 AM
Probably, the use of the word "official" was inappropriate. Thanks for that titopao...

But where I got those quoted message were from the NJB or the New Jerusalem Bible, which was according to the catholic.org website was
the New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) version is translated "directly from the Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic." - http://www.catholic.org/bible/

titopao
08.09.15, 10:40 AM
Probably, the use of the word "official" was inappropriate. Thanks for that titopao...

But where I got those quoted message were from the NJB or the New Jerusalem Bible, which was according to the catholic.org website was
the New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) version is translated "directly from the Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic."

- http://www.catholic.org/bible/

So does the NAB (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P1.HTM):

The text of the books contained in The New American Bible is a completely new translation throughout. From the original and the oldest available texts of the sacred books, it aims to convey as directly as possible the thought and individual style of the inspired writers. The better understanding of Hebrew and Greek, and the steady development of the science of textual criticism, the fruit of patient study since the time of St. Jerome, have allowed the translators and editors in their use of all available materials to approach more closely than ever before the sense of what the sacred authors actually wrote.

Where the translation supposes the received text - Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek, as the case may be - ordinarily contained in the best-known editions, as the original or the oldest extant form, no additional remarks are necessary. But for those who are happily able to study the original text of the scriptures at firsthand, a supplementary series of textual notes pertaining to the Old Testament was added originally in an appendix to the typical edition. (It is now obtainable in a separate booklet from The Catholic Biblical Association of America, The Catholic University of America, Washington, DC 20064.) These notes furnish a guide in those cases in which the editorial board judges that the manuscripts in the original languages, or the evidence of the ancient versions, or some similar source, furnish the correct reading of a passage, or at least a reading more true to the original than that customarily printed in the available editions.

ernanibaetiong
08.09.15, 10:46 AM
Does anyone know when YHWH became Yahweh and how it did so? I mean who commisioned that translation that brought about the insertion of the vowels? I think that this is the root of all the problems since as discussed here prviously,YHWH naman talaga yun dati di ba? Tapos binago nila. Kung nakabuti o nakasama yung pagbabagong yon, yun ang ayokong mag-react hehe (playing safe). History lesson muna siguro tayo at baka mahanap natin ang sagot, ang sabi nga "Ang di lumingon sa pinanggalingan..." Ok na yun hehe :P

Alexander
08.09.15, 10:53 AM
Needless to say titopao, if both NAB and NJB were from the original texts of Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew, why does the NJB have the "Yahweh" and the NAB doesn't?

value

ernani, meron binigay na link dati si titopao sa wikipedia, at meron din ako as quoted below

Update: Some reading reference from the Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6291

titopao's post - http://www.bukaspalad.com/board/showpost.php?p=58123&postcount=35

titopao
08.09.15, 10:56 AM
According to the WP article on the Tetragrammaton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton), YHWH (in its original Hebrew) appears 6,828 times in the Bible. For more information on how the original Hebrew letters were spelled into "YHWH", see "Masoretic text" (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Masoretic_Text), which was the basis for the Hebrew letters.

Now regarding the transliteration into "Yahweh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh)"...

Traditionally, observant Jews do not voice the name יהוה aloud. It is believed to be too sacred to be uttered and is often referred to as the 'Ineffable Name', the 'Unutterable Name' or the 'Distinctive Name'. They often use circumlocutions when referring to the name of the Deity, e.g., HaShem ("The Name") or Shem HaMeforash (“the ineffable Name”) when reading the Tanakh aloud because the Name of God must not be spoken. Reverence is shown because it is holy God's Name and it is believed that this pre-empts ever misusing the name. "Adonai" is spoken only in prayer, and YHVH is only written on paper that will not be thrown away or discarded. Adding vowels to the Name of the Lord is an insult to some Jews because the point is that it cannot be spoken because it is God's Name (to be). To avoid spelling the divine name, observant Jews may alter the letters in Hebrew as well as English, e.g., YKVK.

...

Although the Catholic Church recognizes the Divine Name as "YHWH" in the Catechism of the Church, it nevertheless has traditionally used the term "Lord" in Its stead, out of respect. This was recently re-affirmed in a Vatican statement, saying any usage of the Divine Name should be prohibited in public worship.

...

During the Babylonian captivity the Hebrew language spoken by the Jews was replaced by the Aramaic language of their Babylonian captors. Aramaic was closely related to Hebrew and, while sharing many vocabulary words in common, contained some words that sounded the same or similar but had other meanings. In Aramaic, the Hebrew word for “blaspheme” used in Leviticus 24:16, “Anyone who blasphemes the name of YHWH must be put to death” began to be interpreted as “pronounce” rather than “blaspheme”. When the Jews began speaking Aramaic, this verse was (mis)understood to mean, “Anyone who pronounces the name of YHWH must be put to death.” Since then, observant Jews have maintained the custom of not pronouncing the name, but use Adonai (“my Lord [plural of majesty]”) instead. During the first few centuries AD this may have resulted in loss of traditional memory of how to pronounce the Name (except among Samaritans). The Septuagint (Greek translation) and Vulgata (Latin translation) use the word "Lord" (κύριος (kurios) and dominus, respectively).
The spelling of the Tetragrammaton and connected forms in the Hebrew Masoretic text of the Bible, with vowel points shown in red. (Click on image to enlarge.)
The spelling of the Tetragrammaton and connected forms in the Hebrew Masoretic text of the Bible, with vowel points shown in red. (Click on image to enlarge.)

The Masoretes added vowel points (niqqud) and cantillation marks to the manuscripts to indicate vowel usage and for use in the ritual chanting of readings from the Bible in synagogue services. To יהוה they added the vowels for "Adonai" ("My Lord"), the word to use when the text was read.

Many Jews will not even use "Adonai" except when praying, and substitute other terms, e.g. HaShem ("The Name") or the nonsense word Ado-Shem, out of fear of the potential misuse of the divine name. In written English, "G-d" is a substitute used by a minority of Christians.

Parts of the Talmud, particularly those dealing with Yom Kippur, seem to imply that the Tetragrammaton should be pronounced in several ways, with only one (not explained in the text, and apparently kept by oral tradition by the Kohen Gadol) being the personal name of God.

In late Kabbalistic works the term HWYH - הוי'ה (pronounced Havayeh) is used.

Translators often render YHWH as a word meaning "Lord", e.g. Greek Κυριος, Latin Dominus, and following that, English "the Lord", Polish Pan, Welsh Arglwydd, etc. However, all of the above are inaccurate translations of the Tetragrammaton.

Because the name was no longer pronounced and its own vowels were not written, its own pronunciation was forgotten. When Christians, unaware of the Jewish tradition, started to read the Hebrew Bible, they read יְהֹוָה as written with YHWH's consonants with Adonai's vowels, and thus said or transcribed Iehovah. Today this transcription is generally recognized as mistaken; however many religious groups continue to use the form Jehovah because it is familiar.

...

Exodus 3:15 is used to support the use of the Name YHWH: “This is my Name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.”. The word “forever” is “olahm” which means “time out of mind, to eternity” Many Scriptures do favour the use of the Name. The biblical law does not prohibit the use of the Name, but it warns against “misuse”, “blaspheming” or in ordinary terms, “taking lightly” the Name of YHWH. The Biblical texts suggest the people of the Bible - including the patriarchs - used the Name of YHWH. A wealth of scriptures support this notion: The Assemblies of Yahweh continue to use the sacred Name for some of these reasons.

titopao
08.09.15, 11:05 AM
Needless to say titopao, if both NAB and NJB were from the original texts of Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew, why does the NJB have the "Yahweh" and the NAB doesn't?

The NAB was undertaken by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, which is based in Rome :) Its main purpose is to provide basic Christian education for Catholics, especially for Children.

Note that, according to the Wikipedia, the Jerusalem Bible is itself undergoing a revision which, among others, will also substitute "Lord" for "Yahweh":

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem_Bible
The French text [the original version of the Jerusalem Bible] received a third update in 1998, and is currently undergoing a fourth revision, under which it will revert Yahweh to LORD.

ernanibaetiong
08.09.15, 11:09 AM
Sakit sa bangs ng mga articles na yun ah...hmm talaga nga sigurong I'll just leave it to the wisdom of our elected cardinals and the Pope since they should know best:)

titopao
08.09.15, 11:15 AM
Sakit sa bangs ng mga articles na yun ah...hmm talaga nga sigurong I'll just leave it to the wisdom of our elected cardinals and the Pope since they should know best:)

LOL HOnga, maski ako I had to read thrice para lang maintindihan yung flow ng information :P

Pero it's interesting to find out the lengths that our Jewish brothers will go through just to avoid committing blasphemy. Imagine, they will be more willing to write "YHWH" down but not even dare say it, as if it was a matter of life and death.

E samantalang may mga tao dyan na parang keber lang kung magsabi ng kung ano anong mga kataga tulad ng...arghh, I'd rather not name it, I'm sure alam nyo yung sinasabi ko :P Ang pinakamasaklap nito, one such expression entered Philippine culture and we Filipinos sometimes say it mindlessly. Which expression? "Susmaryosep"----which is a contraction of "Hesus, Maria, Josep". Now that makes you really think twice :P

ernanibaetiong
08.09.15, 11:22 AM
"Susmaryosep"

Haha, lola kong super pala-dasal madalas magsabi nyan, sa pamilya sya din naman yung madalas magsabi ng "Anak ng___" hahaha, sumalangit nawa siya, baka hilahin pa paa ko't ginawa ko pa syang example ng blasphemy aheheROFLMAO

J O J I T
08.09.15, 05:00 PM
The most that they can do (IMO) is to comply and do the necessary revisions that they need to do. Walang good reason para "sagutin" or "mag-react" dun sa directive ng Vatican as the directive is, in essence, much like a law or a command, in the same way that no one can't change the directives regarding, say, the Holy Mass (as stated in the General Instruction on the Roman Missal).

so ito na kaya ang sagot ng lahat ng composers? it's either change it or don't sing it? :(

titopao
08.09.15, 05:13 PM
so ito na kaya ang sagot ng lahat ng composers? it's either change it or don't sing it? :(

Don't be a little alarmist on this one. The Vatican does not prohibit the composers from revising their compositions :P With regard to not singing it in case no such revisions are available, I think it's the singer's/choir's discretion (or rather do the revisions themselves,though ideally may permission from the composer given this situation.).

And kung issue din lang ang (mis)use ng "YHWH" or "Yahweh", an even better solution is to compose more songs without using it! At least, either way, nakinabang pa rin tayong lahat, di ba? :D

J O J I T
08.09.15, 05:34 PM
that's what I want to know....are they going to revise their compositions?:(

Like for Kanlungan, the love of God endures forevermore or Biyaheng Langit na may mga salitang Yahweh....??? di naman siguro kailangan ipa-hinto ng pagbenta ng album dahil may mga songs na may Yahweh..magastos din namang magrecord ulit at palitan ang mga ito..

yung songbook nyo ba titopao walang salitang Yahweh? :P lagot kayo kung meron :D

J O J I T
08.09.15, 05:44 PM
not to mention ang isa sa mga favorite namin. Umawit Kayo composed by Fr. Arnel...meron din Yahweh. sus....

titopao
08.09.15, 05:52 PM
yung songbook nyo ba titopao walang salitang Yahweh? :P lagot kayo kung meron :D

Sa pagkakatanda ko, wala ata...but let me double-check on that :)

holychef
08.09.15, 10:44 PM
My opinion, the Church honors its roots by looking after the tradition of the Jews.


I agree po with Kuya Alex. Sabi nga po ng Religion teacher ko, the mother religion of the Catholic Church is Jewish since Jesus Christ is Jewish (pati daw Islam since they believed in Ishmael, the other son of Abraham to be the one that is supposed to be offered for sacrifice instead of Isaac (tama ba?), but that is another discussion..haha). Siguro nga kaya ginawa ito ng Vatican is to honor the Jewish custom and to honor the holy name of God.

Anyways...so far naman wala pa akong naririnig dito sa parish namin any directive sa aming lectors/choir members on this issue.

titopao
08.09.15, 11:01 PM
Siguro nga kaya ginawa ito ng Vatican is to honor the Jewish custom and to honor the holy name of God.

Be a little careful on this one, though. The directive actually didn't say anything about our Jewish brothers or even our Jewish heritage (if at all).

May distinction kasi yung for the Vatican to directly name our Jewish brothers and yung nireference lang nila yung early history ng Judaism (w/o any hint, subtle or otherwise, about our Jewish brethren---and mas lalo na siguro kung sasabihin nating "honor the Jewish custom"), and for the Vatican to make even the slightest reference to them is a politically sensitive issue in many parts of the world, and doing so might derails ecumenism talks between the Vatican and major Jewish rabbis :P

With regard to "honor[ing] the holy name of God", no question don, the directive emphasizes this and it doesn't even need much explaining :D

nmerencilla
08.09.25, 04:23 PM
Pwede po ba akong makahingi ng article nito kasi parang napaisip ako doon sa mga bagay na yun eh sana po mabigyan ako ng kopya ng article para mareview natin ng maigi :) then we can share idea di po ba?:)

titopao
08.09.25, 04:32 PM
Pwede po ba akong makahingi ng article nito kasi parang napaisip ako doon sa mga bagay na yun eh sana po mabigyan ako ng kopya ng article para mareview natin ng maigi :) then we can share idea di po ba?:)

Hi! Please check out this post:

Never mind about looking for it in the Vatican website...I found something even better....

While Googling the name of the American Bishop who was often quoted in news report, I found this website (http://agaphseis.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/why-cant-catholics-say-ywh/) that has a good discussion on the pros and the cons of the said Vatican directive. It turns out that, buried in the middle of the article, is a link to a PDF file that contains:

1. the letter from the said official United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, addressed to all US Bishops (in particular, to whoever will receive a copy of the said letter). It says that attached with that letter is...

(drum roll, please ;) )

2. ...another letter, the two-page letter signed by Francis Cardinal Arinze, prefect of the COngregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Apparently, this is addressed to all the bishops' conferences in the whole world, so this means that CPCP Chairman Bishop Angel Lagdameo will soon receive a copy of Cardinal Arinze's letter :) Cardinal Arinze's letter contains:

a. a statement of the issue (whether we Catholics can prononunce the Tetragammon [4-letter name] "YHWH");
b. a historical and theological backgrounder and discussion; and
c. the now-hotly discussed issue. By now, just be reading news reports, we know that the answer to the question is "NO".

For everyone's interest I've decided to attach the said PDF file on this post, para malaman natin kung ano yung reasons why the Tetragammon "YHWH" can't be pronounced (it's a good read, btw). Hope this clarifies any issues about this. Himayin ninyo yung arguments ni Cardinal Arinze, if you must ;) And, yeah, since the other letter bears the letterhead of a Vatican congregation, this means that it's official. 8) So kung duda yung mga music ministry heads ninyo about the news regarding "YHWH", just show them this letter :)

And here's the link to the attachment I was referring above:

http://www.bukaspalad.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=1630&d=1219971870

Hth :)

nmerencilla
08.09.25, 04:35 PM
Pasensya po but I cannot open the link restricted po yata ang account ko :(

titopao
08.09.25, 04:46 PM
Pasensya po but I cannot open the link restricted po yata ang account ko :(

Uh...visit mo na lang yung blog link na na-mention ko. Then find the "here" link below the quoted letter from the American bishop, andun yung copy ng letter from the Vatican. Dun ko din lang kasi nakuha yung copy ng Vatican directive eh ;)

Or you can try this direct link: http://www.liturgy.co.nz/PDF/Name_of_God.pdf

nmerencilla
08.09.25, 05:16 PM
OK po salamat po nakakuha na po ako ng copy salamat po ulit :)

pat111
08.09.30, 05:53 PM
I agree po with Kuya Alex. Sabi nga po ng Religion teacher ko, the mother religion of the Catholic Church is Jewish since Jesus Christ is Jewish (pati daw Islam since they believed in Ishmael, the other son of Abraham to be the one that is supposed to be offered for sacrifice instead of Isaac (tama ba?), but that is another discussion..haha). Siguro nga kaya ginawa ito ng Vatican is to honor the Jewish custom and to honor the holy name of God.

Correct. Christianity started out as an obscure Jewish sect (admittedly an heretical one in the eyes of some people at that time) that started to become separate from it as time passed.

reksuyah
08.09.30, 11:06 PM
bakit hindi man lang binanggit ito ni fr. carlo magno nung seminar sa san carlos 2 saturdays ago.

pano naman kaya yung mga songs na favorite natin "you are near" "yahweh the faithful one" "umawit kayo"?

kaninang umaga pinakanta ko yung you are near. deadma muna. wala pa namang nakakaalam neto sa parish namin.:)

titopao
08.10.01, 12:21 AM
kaninang umaga pinakanta ko yung you are near. deadma muna. wala pa namang nakakaalam neto sa parish namin.:)


Naging curious tuloy ako. Tayong lahat na nandito sa boards, updated tayo sa mga happenings katulad nitong directive (na nagbigay ng ban sa paggamit ng YHWH sa kanta o dasal). I just wonder kung paano magrereact yung choir/parishioners mo pag nalaman nilang bawal na pala yon :P

Meron din bang iba dito na nakaexperience ng reaction galing sa ibang tao tungkol sa directive tungkol sa YHWH? :)

reksuyah
08.10.06, 10:30 PM
parang hindi matanggap nung mga tao sa ministry ang directive na ito. ang laging tanong ay "Bakit???"... sabi ko out of reverence to the name of God, and keeping faithful to the Church's tradition. eh sabi nila decades have passed since we started singing songs with the tetragrammaton, why only now. eh sabi ko pana-panahon lang yan.

naalala namin... ang favorite naming entrance hymn of all time, the very popular Sing a New Song contains the trigrammaton. So pag kinanta namin "O God's people dance for joy.. Oh come before the Lord." Ganun na lang siguro.

Ana Maria Licup
08.10.13, 08:25 AM
pano naman kaya yung mga songs na favorite natin "you are near" "yahweh the faithful one" "umawit kayo"?

kaninang umaga pinakanta ko yung you are near. deadma muna. wala pa namang nakakaalam neto sa parish namin.:)

In the song You Are Near, we substituted it with Father. Kasi parehong two syllables so okay lang. The important thing is that we follow the directive.

tiger shark
08.10.13, 09:28 AM
Actually my choir did. When I pointed out to our choirmaster the word yahweh and explained to him why we cannot use it anymore. He was actually very surprise to know He himself is not aware ( he is the head of the Liturgy Committee) of the new directives so with the choir members. I assume that the rest of the music groups and other org. in the parish are not updated with this as well.



Naging curious tuloy ako. Tayong lahat na nandito sa boards, updated tayo sa mga happenings katulad nitong directive (na nagbigay ng ban sa paggamit ng YHWH sa kanta o dasal). I just wonder kung paano magrereact yung choir/parishioners mo pag nalaman nilang bawal na pala yon :P

Meron din bang iba dito na nakaexperience ng reaction galing sa ibang tao tungkol sa directive tungkol sa YHWH? :)

reksuyah
08.10.24, 11:47 AM
i've seen in the site of OCP that they have already made revisions on the lyrics of their songs like you are near and sing a new song...

"shout in gladness! dance for joy! Oh come before the Lord!"

"Oh Lord i know you are near...."

nakakapanibago pero masasanay din siguro tayo...

sana bawiin itong directive na ito in the future... pagnagpalit na ng administrasyon.

reksuyah
08.10.24, 11:49 AM
im wondering if JMM will also revise the lyrics of some of their songs... parang deadma pa kasi tayo dito sa Pinas re this directive.

titopao
08.10.24, 11:54 AM
im wondering if JMM will also revise the lyrics of some of their songs... parang deadma pa kasi tayo dito sa Pinas re this directive.

Honga...now that is a good question :)

J O J I T
08.10.24, 09:48 PM
My guess is they won't change any of their songs. Pero hula lang yun ha :)

NikNoK
08.10.25, 10:35 AM
A few weeks ago, when i had the chance to attend the Edsa Shrine Music Ministry Coordinator's Meeting... I had the chance to ask Fr. Nilo on the spot during the "other matters" discussion as we were discussing the songs na "pwedeng kantahin" at "hindi pwedeng" kantahin.


"Father Nilo, totoo po bang ipinagbabawal nang kantahin sa Mass yung mga songs na may salitang YAHWEH?"


Then once and for all he answered the question smiling.. Matagal na raw issue yun at HINDI raw bawal kantahin yung mga songs na iyon. (i assume he was speaking on behalf of the Archdiocese of Manila particulary in the Edsa Shrine Music Ministry)

Kaya raw ipinagbabawal yun kasi nga may mga Jews na mao-offend sa paggamit nito.. Pero dito naman daw sa Pilipinas.. walang mga Hudyo... so walang kaso kung kakantahin yung mga songs na iyon.


So there... IN EDSA SHRINE.... PWEDENG PWEDENG KANTAHIN at hindi applicable yung directives na iyon as per Fr. Nilo.

J O J I T
08.10.25, 02:16 PM
hehehe...nice one niknok...di ko lang alam dito sa Australia kung me jew..hehe pero sa ngayon, wala pa ding balita dito sa parish namin..

Koenji
08.10.25, 03:25 PM
Kaya raw ipinagbabawal yun kasi nga may mga Jews na mao-offend sa paggamit nito.. Pero dito naman daw sa Pilipinas.. walang mga Hudyo... so walang kaso kung kakantahin yung mga songs na iyon.




Correction lang po. Meron din Jews d'yan sa Pilipinas (paki-google lang po). I know because I was priveleged to be able to visit their synagogue located somewhere in Taft avenue many years ago. I don't know if its still there though.

Pero para sa akin, may Jews man o wala kailangan sumunod tayo sa Vatican unless mayroong mga exceptions.

reksuyah
08.10.25, 04:40 PM
and as per the Vatican directive... there is nothing there that says it is forbidding the mention of YHWH because we are to respect the tradition of teh Jews. nothing to do with them (at least according to the letter) ...it is because we have a long standing tradition of not mentioning it also.


meron ngang jewish community dito... dati we invite them sa parish for a passover seder... holy tuesday namin ginagawa pero hindi open sa lahat. it just so happened that our choir was assigned to sing kaya naka participate kami. we dont do it now kasi magastos din daw eh.

J O J I T
08.10.25, 10:17 PM
sabi nga sa workshop na na-attendan ko dati...kung pumayag ang presiding priest, walang problem pag binawal, walang magagawa....besides ke Yahweh, God, Diyos, Allah, Father...di rin naman din natin malalaman kung "ok" sa Diyos yung mga terms na yun..mas importante siguro kung ano intention mo sa pag gamit mo ng Yahweh, God, Diyos, Father o Allah. yun e sa akin lang naman..Again, I don't think Yahweh would mind if I call Him Yahweh kasi alam Niya na kasama sa pag gamit ko nun at respeto at pagmamahal sa Kanya. Kung ayaw ng batikan na tawagin ko Siyang Yahweh, usupan nalang namin ni Lord yun. :)

NikNoK
08.10.27, 03:48 PM
.... Agree with your opinion, Jojit..
.... i think its really more of your intention.

.... nakakalungkot naman kung mapupunta ako sa impiyerno dahil kinanta ko ang "Yahweh, I know You are near" sa misa.. (slightly exagg...)

siguro naman depende talaga sa intention yun.


..Ewan ko lang ha, d2 ba sa Pilipinas maraming Jews na nagsisimba sa Catholic churches natin? Talaga nga kayang mao-offend sila pag nagsimba sila at narinig nilang kinakanta natin yun sa mga misa natin? Magsusumbong kaya sila sa Santo Papa sa Roma?

... anyhow, coming from Fr. Nilo na hindi niya ipinagbabawal sa Edsa Shrine and i guess sa ARchdiocese of Manila ang pagkanta ng mga songs na may "Yahweh" sa misa... i think hindi siya big deal.

...so siguro depende dun sa local authority ng parish/diocese ninyo.. Pag pinagbawalan kayo, then i think wag na lang kantahin. Pero kung hindi naman.. i guess hindi naman makakasama sa pananampalataya ng mga Katolikong Pilipino na nagsisimba kung maririnig nilang kinakanta ninyo yung mga songs na may "Yahweh".


just my 2 cents.

silveryellow
08.10.27, 04:49 PM
bakit hindi man lang binanggit ito ni fr. carlo magno nung seminar sa san carlos

Paano mo ibabahagi ang isang bagay na wala ka naman...? ???


Kaya raw ipinagbabawal yun kasi nga may mga Jews na mao-offend sa paggamit nito..

Ibig sabihin nagsisimba sila sa simbahan natin?
Eh sila kaya, walang ginagamit na offensive to other non-Jewish people?? ???

JLS1
09.01.10, 03:52 AM
what is "yahweh" and why we cannot sing in mass.I am very much interested to sing songs in mass for this christmas.

nlim
09.02.07, 02:29 PM
Mayroon bang mga copyright ang mga ibang relihiyon sa paggamit ng mga pangalan ng Diyos. I think si God lang ang nakakaalam noon. If Yahweh is in their tradition so is our church. Wala pa akong naririnig n mga directive tungkol dyan. Kung serious ang Simbahan Katolika sa Pilipinas ay maglalabas ng sulat dapat yan para malaman sa mga diocese.
Kung mayroon man then hindi maganda ang decimination. Di tayo pwedeng maniwalakaagad di ba? Para kay Lord naman lahat ng mga dasal at pagpuri, bakit tao lang ang nagbabawal ay susundin natin?:(

titopao
09.02.08, 09:50 AM
@nlim: It's not a copyright per se. In a good number of religions, you cannot just say the name of God just as easily as we can say, for example, the name of your friend. For example, our brother Muslims cannot just say "Allah" in everyday conversation, and strictly speaking the only time na pwede nilang banggitin yon freely is during worship. I think that the Buddhists also say the same for their supreme deity (di ko maalala yung name) except when discussing with a guru. Regarding the Jews' non-use of "Yahweh", keep in mind that Christianity originally came from Judaism---the early Christians were first regarded as a breakaway Jewish faction---and some teachings in Catholic liturgy were borrowed from the Jews (like monotheism).

Again, let me clarify one thing: the aim of the directive is to restore Christianity to its very beginning, where the name "Yahweh" would appear only in Scripture. Nag-start lang maging loose ang paggamit ng "Yahweh" among the laity (and, unfortunately, among some priests...but not the liturgists and especially not the Vatican) when the Vatican II relaxed some of its restictions during the liturgy. Apparently, akala ng mga tao, especially yung mga mahilig magbasa ng Bible, na pupwede nang gamitin ang "Yahweh" in ordinary prayer or songs. What most people missed out is that the name "Yahweh" didn't appear in any liturgy. Not even once. If you were able to read the attached directive, that fact was mentioned. Nung nabasa ko yung part na 'yon, I realized that the Vatican was right, the name "Yahweh" doesn't even used in any of the missals.

And that...if you wouldn't even consider the debate over the proper interpretation of "YHWH" :P Mas gugulo lang yung usapan kung isasama pa natin yon, so let's leave that issue out :P

nlim
09.02.08, 11:19 AM
Titopao,
Thanks for clearing that out. So wag na nga nating pahabain ang issue and I think so that everyone should be aware.
Yes, I remember reading something about that long time ago that there was a time that when they mention the name of God, they die, until such a long time nobody even try to remember it until it was forgoten.
Oo nga naman - nasa Ten Commandments din naman nga pala.
So clear na tayo dyan.
Again, thanks.

kidmasterdogz
09.02.08, 03:42 PM
may kanta kami na kinakanta sa choir sa simbahan, mga advent ata namin nakanta to or mga times bago mag advent...

-let the king of glory come-

it goes like: "lift up your gates, lift up your arches...let the king of glory come"

and a stanza goes like this: "who is the king of glory come? yahweh mighty and strong...."

so parang mali ba ang pag gamit ng kantang ito???

pat111
09.04.02, 09:03 AM
may kanta kami na kinakanta sa choir sa simbahan, mga advent ata namin nakanta to or mga times bago mag advent...

-let the king of glory come-

it goes like: "lift up your gates, lift up your arches...let the king of glory come"

and a stanza goes like this: "who is the king of glory come? yahweh mighty and strong...."

so parang mali ba ang pag gamit ng kantang ito???

Hindi naman siguro...but I think in the light of the directive from the Vatican we should replace "Yahweh" with something that could easily fit. Ilan ba iyung syllables ng Yahweh sa kanta? I think we can substitute "the LORD" for it.

herald
09.06.22, 01:42 PM
are we still allowed to say or sing the word "Yahweh", some say it's still ok to sing songs with "Yahweh".

baleleng
09.07.07, 07:36 AM
wala naman sanang magalit sa akin ano... does anybody here have a link to this directive so i can print it and present to our parish MM. nahihilo na po ako kakahanap. =S
meron kasing mga choirs dito sa amin na may katigasan ang ulo eh. sana nagtayo na lang sila ng banda if they just wanted to sing whatever they want to sing (or mag-concert @ maghintay ng mga papuri sa maganda nilang performance). hmpf. hehehe.

Alexander
09.07.07, 08:28 AM
Sa unang unang post sa thread na ito ni hokanu ang na quote lang na link ay ang CNA

from Catholic News Service August 12
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804119.htm

Sa post naman ni titopao...
http://www.bukaspalad.com/board/showpost.php?p=57184&postcount=5

Meron syang binigay na PDF pero it is a document with the letterhead of USCCB Committee on Divine Worship na naka attach din ang letter ni Card Arinze, pero di naman available sa Vatican Website. Sa letter na ito, naka address ito sa "Bishops Conferences"....

Original link to this document is found here
http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/NameOfGod.pdf

I guess, the USCCB did its part by addressing the issue pero we still need to see the action of other Bishops Conference sa ibang lugar.

Fineprint: Word of caution... the USCCB directive does not apply to other countries.

herald
09.07.16, 09:39 AM
here's some of the revised lyrics based on the directive...

including "Yahweh you are near and SIng a New song"

Alexander
09.07.17, 07:26 AM
Teka herald. I removed muna the attachement for copyright reasons.

Meron ka bang source nito na ina-allow to distribute this music sheets. Para lang malinaw. Thanks

herald
09.07.18, 12:03 AM
Teka herald. I removed muna the attachement for copyright reasons.

Meron ka bang source nito na ina-allow to distribute this music sheets. Para lang malinaw. Thanks


http://www.ocp.org/directive08 This permission is limited to private, non-commercial reprints (e.g. parish songsheets or worship programs). tingin ko ok naman, pero pa check na rin para safe

Alexander
09.07.18, 01:49 PM
herald,

We'll just keep it that way, meron palang download links sa binigay mong OCP site...

http://www.ocp.org/directive08

baleleng
09.07.27, 02:48 PM
salamat kuya alexander... pero alam mo, useless din naman pala ito. kasi when i mentioned this to our organista/choirmaster, ang sabi niya sa akin, oks lang kasi hindi pa naman daw ito pinagbabawal ng aming diocese.

engshi18
09.08.03, 09:05 AM
sayang ang ganda pa naman ng you are near... anu naman kaya ireplace nila?

herald
09.08.03, 09:33 AM
naman pala ito. kasi when i mentioned this to our organista/choirmaster, ang sabi niya sa akin, oks lang kasi hindi pa naman daw ito pinagbabawal ng aming diocese.


ganyan ang mga comment ng matitigas ang ulo :D (narinig ko na ata ang ganitong sagot, hmmm). ako nahirapan din, pero in the end nakinig naman kahit papaano...

here's another link: (same lang ito nung letter)

http://www.cbcpnews.com/?q=node/4552


sayang ang ganda pa naman ng you are near... anu naman kaya ireplace nila?

sa itaas may link doon ng ilan sa mga kantang na modify because of these directive (incuding you are near and sing a new song)

Alexander
09.08.03, 10:30 AM
Salamat sa link herald. So that makes it official sa Philippines because it is an article in the CBCP website. Dapat siguro, padalhan ng CBCP ang mga local bishops para ipamudmod sa mga parokya.

titopao
09.08.04, 08:11 AM
Alex, it looks like the CBCP website just provided the news item from the Vatican News Service, in the same way that the Star, the Bulletin and the Inquirer syndicate international news from Reuters, AFP and AP :P

So, I think, what could make it "more official" is a decree or statement penned by someone from the CBCP itself :P

Alexander
09.08.04, 08:58 AM
So sa tinagal-tagal na pala ng balita, CBCP is still hesitant in issuing a decree... hay bagal...

pat111
09.08.04, 11:39 AM
Not to denigrate the CBCP, pero alam naman natin sa Pilipinas...it would take a long time for a regulation to actually take effect; and if it does, there would probably be loopholes. :D







Quoted message removed, please read here for guidance. Thanks - Alexander
http://www.bukaspalad.com/board/showthread.php?t=6131

james
09.08.21, 02:29 AM
hi guys, i always visit the site pro ngayun lang ako nagpa register... anyway, regarding with the issue ngayon pa lang namin nalaman pro talagang na offend ako sa nangyari. im a choir member here in cagayan de oro city (mindanao). ang nangyari kasi may nag invite sa amin na kumanta para sa wedding nila. ibang simbahan kasi so pinaalalahanan kami ng secretary ng church na mag submit ng aming mga kakantahin. Yahweh, the faithful one is our recessional and was submitted. walang reaction from the secretary.

August 20, 2009 nung nasa simbahan na kami, all of us aware na sa bagong rules ng church na bawal kantahin ang non liturgical song in times of picture taking like: ikaw;cherish the treasure;the prayer;i will be here;panunumpa;you raise me up;the wedding... nung kinanta na namin yung Yahweh, the faithful one, chorus palang yung kinanta namin ipinatigil na ng pari.

We really have no idea what's going on, kung bakit pinatigil yung kanta and Yahweh, the faithful one is a liturgical song if im not mistaken. pero nag explain naman yung pari sa harap ng karamihan kung bakit ganun... na offend lang talaga ako hindi lang ako kung hindi lahat kami kasi parang hindi ko ma explain yung feelings na sana naman kung pede hinintay nalang matapos ang chorus and first verse. para bang brutal yung nangyari hindi ko alam but for me talagang nahiya ako sa nangyari.

sorry guys ha, share ko lang ang nangyari sa amin regarding with the issue.

NikNoK
09.08.21, 02:46 AM
Hi, James!

Thank you for registering sa board.

I symphatize with your feelings. Nakaka-offend talaga yung ginawa ng pari and i can relate to what you guys feel. Nangyari na kasi sa choir ko ito eh, pero not in the issue of singing 'Yahweh".

Sana pinadere-deretso pinatapos na lang niya yung kanta para hindi kayo napahiya.. pwede naman niya kayong pagsabihan discretely after the wedding eh. Nakaka-trauma kaya ito para sa iba.. yung mapagsabihan at ma-correct ka ng isang pari sa simbahan during the service. The mere fact na tinanggap ng secretary niyo yung line-up na iyon at walang reaction, ano ba naman ang alam niyo.. E di sana kung sinabihan kayo ng secretary ng parokya na on the first place if that's the rule ng priest eh alam ng buong parokya especially his secretary, e di hindi niyo na kinanta sana.

When it happened to me, pinuntahan ko talaga yung pari right after our service and first nag-apologize ako for what happened.. then second... i told him honestly na na-offend ako sa ginawa niya, na sana after the mass niya na lang ginawa iyon... while i explained to him that i highly respect him as a priest and as the celebrant, i just cant help myself to tell him how offending he is nung pinahiya kami during service.. in the end, nag-sorry naman siya. Pero muntik na akong mapaiyak sa harapan niya sa sama ng loob eh.. naawa kasi ako dun sa mga youth members ko na napahiya eh, nandun pa naman yung family/parents nila.

Going back to the song: Ang alam ko because of the vatican rule, eh hindi na considered liturgical song ang mga kantang may Yahweh, meaning hindi na pwedeng gamitin sa loob ng liturgy.

Pero kung sa recessional yata, pwede eh.. hindi lang ako sure, maybe somebody can enlighten us.

Still, huwag kang mawawalan ng focus. Just charge it to experience and learn from it. When it happend to my choir, i initiated a meeting with my members and explained what happened and we processed it... Ok naman.. ngayon nakarecover na sila.. Masaya na ulit na nagseserve sa parokya..

By the way, you may want to visit the Meet Market thread to introduce yourself to us..

Happy posting and God bless!

Cheers!

herald
09.08.24, 11:48 AM
AFAIK, recessional and processional is not part of the Mass pero para safe sa ruling na ito, better wag ng kumanta ng ganitong song sa loob ng simbahan

naka-ka offend talaga yung ganong pangyayari, there are priest na talagang pag bawal bawal at pigilan agad kahit in the middle of singing (though I stil prefer na after na lang pagsabihan), so that the congregation will know also. offending as it is pero minsan hindi maiwasan. I have my own share of similar experience, nakakahiya man yung nangyari, pero life must go on...

(process.. process, hmm, recenty lang dumaan ako dito, ako naman yung nagsabi na bawal ito, pero offending yung words na natanggap ko)

Sa Parish nga namin hindi pa alam ito, sinabi ko lang sa isang member ng choir, nagulat pa sya, ewan ko lang kung sinabi sa buong ministry.

knightdom
09.08.24, 01:20 PM
buti dito sa amin sa Abu Dhabi hindi ganyan ang mga pari. and I think it will take some time bago yan i-roll out dito since yung mga songs both for English and Tagalog mass e may "Yahweh" and even sa sermons/homily ng mga pari e binabanggit nila yung "Yahweh." :)

baleleng
09.09.03, 11:54 AM
lam niyo mga kuya tama kayo dapat nga na mag-release sila ng official word about this matter sa lahat ng mga simbahang katoliko sa pilipinas.

(with all due respect) tinatawagan po ang cbcp! =D

floydie15
09.09.03, 06:18 PM
oo nga naman...dapat may certain decree dito na talagang nagpo-prohibit sa paggamit ng word yahweh sa mga kanta....kasi sayang naman yung mga songs na dati pwede...maganda pa naman sila,,:(

may mga parishes naman siguro na pwede ang yahweh eh...pero wala pa talagang definite na decree for that

Alexander
09.09.04, 06:59 AM
Original link to this document is found here
http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/NameOfGod.pdf

Fineprint: Word of caution... the USCCB directive does not apply to other countries.

If you did some back reading, you would notice that there was already a letter that came from Vatican's Congregation for Divine Worship signed by the prefect, Cardinal Arinze.

Now it was posted in the USCCB website (link above) at inaksyunan na ng kanilang Bishop's Conference. It is now a question of when will the CBCP act on it for the Church in the Philippines...

Talking about a decree being declared, first, it's only the Pope that makes a decree pero at this stage, that letter would suffice kaya nga ipinapasa o naka address ang sulat sa mga Bishop's Conference for them to implement.

My two cents :)

vic_romero
09.09.11, 09:30 AM
Alex, the Vatican uses the New American Bible (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_INDEX.HTM) translation, so I don't think the Jerusalem Bible is the "official" English version...otherwise, they would have put up the Jerusalem Bible and not the NAB on its own website :)


Ang New American Bible (NAB) ay salin ng Biblia na ipinagawa ng mga obispong Amerikano. Ang mga pagbasa sa Misa sa mga simbahan sa USA ay galing dito.

Hindi ginagamit ang NAB sa Canada (kung saan ang ginagamit ay ang Revised Standard Version) at sa United Kingdom, kung saan ang ginagamit ay ang Jerusalem Bible.

Ang Jerusalem Bible (JB) ay salin sa Ingles ng Biblia na isinagawa ng isang komite ng mga taong taga-iba't ibang bansa. Batay ito sa Bible de Jerusalem (mga 1940), salin ng Biblia sa salitang Pranses, na isinagawa ng mga Paring Dominikano sa Ecole Biblique de Jerusalem sa Jerusalem. Ang Jerusalem Bible ang unang-unang salin ng Biblia na gumamit ng pangalan ng Diyos na YAHWEH.

Hindi natin masisisi ang Philippine Bible Society dahil at isinalin nila ang pangalan ng Diyos, kagaya ng ginawa ng mga tagasalin ng JB.

Limang Papa (Pio XII, Juan XXIII, Pablo VI, Juan Pablo I, Juan Pablo II) ang pumayag at nagbasbas sa paggamit ng JB.

Ang JB ang inspirasyon ng maraming kompositor na nagsatugtugin ng mga salmo. (Isa na ako.)

Ang kasalukuyang pagbabawal ng paggamit ng pangalan ng Diyos na YAHWEH ay galing kay Cardinal Arinze, dating (hindi na) prepekto ng Congregation for Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Hindi galing sa Papa mismo ang pagbabawal.

Hindi ito dogma.
Ang utos na ito ay hindi "infallible."
Ang Konsilyo Vaticano I ang nagpasimuno ng "infallibility."
Bago Konsilyo Vaticano I, wala pang konsepto ng infallibility.

Sa tanang kasaysayan ng Simbahan, dalawang beses pa lang ginamit ng Papa ang kaniyang kapangyarihang "infalliable: 1) nang ipahayag ng Papa na ang Birhen Maria ay ipinaglihi nang walang kasalanan (immaculate conception) at 2) nang ipahayag ng Papa na ang Birhen Maria ay hindi namatay kagaya ng karaniwang tao, kundi iniakyat ang kaniyang katawan sa langit (assumption of Mary).

Ang remedyo ngayon ay palitan ang "Yahweh" ng "Poon" at palitan ang "si Yahweh" ng "ang Poon." Hindi tama ang diin, dahil ang "Yahweh" ay malumay, at ang "Poon" ay mabilis. Pero wala tayong magagawa.

Sa lahat ng mga problemang hinaharap ng CBCP, hindi ito top priority.

titopao
09.09.11, 09:39 AM
Kung Jerusalem Bible ang mas kinikilingan ng mga Papa, paano maipapaliwanag, kung gayon, kung bakit ang New American Bible ang ginagamit ng Vatican sa sarili nitong website sa halip na ang JB?

vic_romero
09.09.11, 10:00 AM
Kung Jerusalem Bible ang mas kinikilingan ng mga Papa, paano maipapaliwanag, kung gayon, kung bakit ang New American Bible ang ginagamit ng Vatican sa sarili nitong website sa halip na ang JB?


Napansin mo, wala si Papa Benito XVI sa listahan ko?

Hindi masasabing mas kinikilingan ng mga Papang nauna kay Benito XVI ang JB.

Sa palagay mo, kunwari ikaw ang Papa, sa lahat ng mga problema ng mundo at ng Simbahang kailangan mong asikasuhin, isa ito sa mga top priority?

Ang mga ganitong bagay ay ipinauubaya ng Papa sa kaniyang mga cardenal.

Ang karapatang-sipi ng JB ay ari ng Todd Longmans Co. (mga tagalathala).
Ang karapatnag-sipi ng NAB ay pag-aari ng USCCB.

Punta ka sa www.clerus.org, ang opisyal na website ng Congregation for the Clergy.

Makikita mo doon ang iba't-ibang tinatanggap na salin ng biblia sa ingles: JB, NAP, RSV, etc.

titopao
09.09.11, 10:21 AM
Ngunit ang NAB ay naroon na sa website ng Vatican maski na noong nabubuhay pa si JPII (http://web.archive.org/web/20041218011821/www.vatican.va/archive/bible/index.htm) ('yan ang snapshot ng website ng Vatican noon pang Disyembre 2004).

yankees_suck23
09.09.12, 10:21 PM
Sa lahat ng mga problemang hinaharap ng CBCP, hindi ito top priority.

So, paano po yung mga pari na ipinopromote pa rin ang mga kantang containing 'Yahweh'? Masisisi po ba natin ang CBCP dito? Or dahil hindi naman infallible at galing lang kay Cardinal Arinze, paano po dapat ito? Should we still follow the parish priest?

Confused lang po talaga ako, lalo na ngayong instrumentalist na ako sa choir namin. Hindi naman po ako ang president ng music ministry sa parish namin.

vic_romero
09.09.12, 11:52 PM
So, paano po yung mga pari na ipinopromote pa rin ang mga kantang containing 'Yahweh'? Masisisi po ba natin ang CBCP dito? Or dahil hindi naman infallible at galing lang kay Cardinal Arinze, paano po dapat ito? Should we still follow the parish priest?

Confused lang po talaga ako, lalo na ngayong instrumentalist na ako sa choir namin. Hindi naman po ako ang president ng music ministry sa parish namin.

Ganito po aking maipapayo.
Sa lahat ng bagay, sundin ang konsyensya.

Heto naman po ang makatutulong sa konsyensya.
Sundin ang utos o kahilingan ng pari . . . maliban kung ito ay labag sa utos ng Diyos.

Ano ang ibig kong sabihin?

Nangyari ito sa US, Europa, Mexico at iba pang lugar. Sinamantala ng ilang pari ang pagtitiwala ng tao. Lumabag sa ika-anim o ika-siyam na utos. Sa madaling salita, sex abuse. Kung ganito ang hiling o utos ng pari, siyempre, huwag kang sumunod.

Hindi lang sex ang problema ng ilang pari. Iyong iba, ang problema naman ay pera. Huwag ka ring makikisangkot sa ganoong bagay.

Kung ang hinihiling ng pari ay sex o pera o katulad na bagay, magalang kang magpaumanhin, umurong, at mag "lie low" muna, hanggang may bagong pari sa parokya.

Pero kung hindi naman ganoon kasama ang hinihiling o utos ng pari, sumunod ka na, kahit alam mong hindi ganap na tama. Lilipas din ang kalagayang iyan.

Sa isang salita, konsyensya.

Kuya Vic

ernanibaetiong
09.09.13, 11:53 AM
Salamat po vic, once in a while we need a sober voice here in the boards. Thanks :)

chitto
09.09.16, 01:17 PM
nasaan na nga tau sa topic na'to?


nga pala, it was the liturgical feast day of our Parish Patron Saint - Mater Dolorosa yesterday, and we had a Mass presided by Archbishop Cardinal Rosales. Yung kinanta namin na salmo e merong YAHWEH...la naman kaming nakuhang komento from him until now, sana wala na nga talaga...

rexjaymalin
09.09.18, 02:24 PM
Hello everyone. Consider me a newbie here but not really in the music ministry (started way back in 1981).

Anyway, this is regarding the directive (dated June 29, 2008) coming from the Vatican that the name of God, commonly rendered as "Yahweh" should NOT be pronounced in the Catholic liturgy. I came across this only upon reading the last page of the songbook "Prayers from the Upper Room" and "Sing of Him" (combined). This actually means that all liturgical songs bearing the name "Yahweh" should be replaced by another appropriate word. In fact, in that page, there was a sample (from "Yahweh, the Faithful One") where "Yahweh" was replaced by "God".

My question or concern is actually two-pronged.

1. If this is so, then how come the Church is not fully "publicizing" such directive? I only say this because even our parish priest was not fully aware of this when I clarified it with him. (On the other hand, please forgive me if I'm one of the last ones to know this; in other words, huli na sa balita)

2. My second question is probably addressed to the composers of two of our favorite songs at church: "Kanlungan" by Fr. Manoling and Pagsanghan and "Pag-ibig Mo, Yahweh" by, if I'm not mistaken, Fr. Aquino. Ever since I got knowledge of the directive, we temporarily stopped singing these songs "as is" in deference to the directive. On the other hand, I do not want to "tamper" with the lyrics of the song myself. So through this message board, I hope I can reach the composers of the songs so they will be the ones to put in the appropriate replacement words. Paging Fr. Manoling, Mr. Pagsi, and Fr. Aquino.

Thank you and I hope I contributed something positive to this messageboard.

Happy singing and praising, everyone! God is good and great!


Rex

joanne
09.09.18, 02:31 PM
that is actually a good point tito rex...we don't even hear it here, i mean the Yahweh word that is inapporopriate for liturgical use...if that is the case,isn't it much appropriate to inform the public about it as well just so everybody knows the change and the rationale behind it...

yankees_suck23
09.09.18, 02:38 PM
mods, pwede po paki-merge ito sa isang thread natin?

yankees_suck23
09.09.18, 03:01 PM
as been said, hindi po siya infallible at unless may order na manggagaling sa Santo Papa, dun pa lang. ang recommendation lang diyan, ask your parish priest. we've brought this up, and since conservative ang pari namin, ni-retain nya ang paggamit ng Yahweh sa mga songs.

*off-topic: nangyari na rin yan sa debate noon regarding sa pag-abolish ng concept ng limbo ni Pope Benedict XVI. ang logic - kung yung sa Santo Papa pa lang ay nagkalituhan na, yung kay Cardinal Arinze pa?

vic_romero
09.09.19, 05:10 AM
Sabi nga si ingles, "It doesn't hurt to repeat good advice."
Hindi masama ang ulitin ang magaling na payo.

1. Sundin po ang pari sa inyong parokya.

2. Kung sinabing huwag nang gamitin ang "Yahweh":
gawin ang mga sumusunod na pagbabago:

a. "si Yahweh" --> "ang Poon":

halimbawa: Si Yahweh ang aking Pastol --> Ang Poon ang aking Pastol
halimbawa: Tanglaw ko'y si Yahweh --> Tanglaw ko'y ang Poon

b. "Yahweh" --> "Poon"

halimbawa: Pag-ibig Mo, Yahweh --> Pag-ibig Mo, Poon

titopao
09.09.22, 08:53 AM
@yankees_suck: Well..actually, hindi naman lahat ng nilalabas ng Vatican or ng Pope ay "infallible". In fact, mabibilang mo lang talaga sa daliri ng isang kamay kung ilan lang ang mga doctrines na hayagang idineklara bilang "infallible" ng Vatican mula noong 20th Century (1901-2000) hanggang ngayon: ang doktrina ng Immaculate Conception at ng Assumption of Mary into heaven :)

Ang konsepto ng "infallibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infallibility)" ay kailangang hayagang ideklara ng Santo Papa o ng isang konsilyo ng mga obispo (under authority of the pope). Ito ay applicable lamang sa mga turo ng simbahan, as in, puro sa mga theology matters lamang (at kadalasan, sa mga fundamental matters of faith). (So, atsa pwera maging ang General Instruction on the Roman Missal, wala naman kasing theology doon :P ) Misconception ng mga tao, Katoliko man o hindi, na lahat ng inilalabas ng Santo Papa ay infallible, pero hindi ito totoo. Maski ang mga encyclicals ng Santo Papa ay hindi infallible (maliban na lamang kung may sasabihin ang Santo Papa na, "ito ang laman ng encyclical ko, it's infallible").

dacs
09.09.22, 11:08 PM
This is a 1997 document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

An excerpt:

In considering some recently promulgated documents of the Magisterium such as the Encyclicals <Veritatis splendor> and <Evangelium vitae>, the Apostolic Letter <Ordinatio sacerdotalis> and the <Responsum ad dubium> of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith regarding the doctrine of <Ordinatio sacerdotalis,> as well the same Congregation’s Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church <regarding the reception of Holy Communion by divorced and remarried members of the faithful>, one first notes that these documents have received a great deal of comment. In certain respects, the comments made in many quarters of the Church and civil society have been rather forceful.
In ecclesial and ecclesiastical circles total assent and deep appreciation has been expressed for the publication of these documents by Cardinals and Bishops as well as well as by Episcopal Conferences and many individual priests and lay faithful, who have written to the Holy Father or the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith stating their adherence and assent to the doctrine taught by the Magisterium in these documents. It should also be pointed out that the practice of first presenting papal documents (the two Encyclicals and the Apostolic Letter <Ordinatio sacerdotalis>) to the presidents of the Episcopal Conferences most concerned with these issues at a meeting in the Holy See has been appreciated and has borne good fruit inasmuch as it has deepened the bond of communion between the Apostolic See and the individual Bishops and these Episcopal Conferences, and has produced even greater results for the dissemination and reception of magisterial documents.

On the other hand, discordant and dissenting voices have been raised by theologians, associations and ecclesiastical groups, which have questioned both the content and the theological basis of the teaching found in these documents, as well as their value and binding doctrinal force, disputing whether these doctrines can be considered <definitive> or even <infallibly> taught by the Magisterium. Thus it seems appropriate to reflect on the main difficulties connected with the value and degree of authority of these magisterial interventions.

I

Doctrinally, and in view of the description of the reactions and principal criticisms of these magisterial documents, special attention should be paid to several key aspects which in today's theological and ecclesial climate are a source of confusion and ambiguity, and entail negative consequences for the teaching of theology and for the behavior of some ecclesiastical circles:

1) first, we must point out the tendency to measure everything on the basis of the distinction between the "infallible Magisterium" and the "fallible Magisterium".

In this way infallibility becomes the criterion for all authority problems, to the point of actually replacing the concept of authority with that of infallibility. Furthermore, the question of the infallibility of the Magisterium is often confused with the question of the truth of a doctrine, by assuming that infallibility is the pre-qualification for the truth and irreformability of the doctrine, and by making the truth and definitive nature of the doctrine depend on whether or not it has been infallibly defined by the Magisterium. In fact, the truth and irreformability of a doctrine depends on the <depositum fide>), transmitted by Scripture and Tradition, while infallibility refers only to the degree of certitude of an act of magisterial teaching. In the various critical stances towards the recent documents of the Magisterium it is often forgotten that the infallible character of a teaching and the definitive and irrevocable character of the assent owed it is not a prerogative belonging solely to what has been solemnly "defined" by the Roman Pontiff or an Ecumenical Council. Whenever the Bishops dispersed in their individual Dioceses in communion with the Successor of Peter teach a truth to be held in a definitive way (cf. <Lumen gentium>, n. 25, 2), they enjoy the same infallibility as the Pope's <ex cathedra> Magisterium or that of a Council.

It must be stressed then that in the Encyclicals <Veritatis splendor> and <Evangelium vitae> and in the Apostolic Letter <Ordinatio sacerdotalis>, the Roman Pontiff intended, though not in a solemn way, to confirm and reaffirm doctrines which belong to the ordinary, universal teaching of the Magisterium, and which therefore are to be held in a definitive and irrevocable way.

Moreover, it must also be kept in mind that if the authority of the Magisterium's teachings admits of varying degrees, this does not mean that the authority of a lesser degree can be considered on the same level as theological opinions or, when it is not a question of infallibility, that only the arguments count and it is impossible for the Church to have a common certitude in a given doctrinal matter.

2) Second, these considerations are highly significant regarding adherence to the teaching of Veritatis splendor and <Evangelium vitae>, of <Ordinatio sacerdotalis> and also of the <Responsum> and the Letter of the Congregation on the reception of Holy Communion by divorced and remarried members of the faithful: since these documents deal with teachings not proposed or confirmed by the Magisterium in the form of a definition (solemn judgement), there is a widespread idea that these teachings can be revised or reformed at a later date or perhaps in another pontificate. This idea is totally groundless and betrays a mistaken understanding of the Catholic Church's doctrine on the Magisterium.

Actually, if we consider the <act> of teaching, the Magisterium can teach a doctrine as <definitive> either by a <defining act> or by a <non-defining act.> First of all, the Magisterium can proclaim a doctrine as definitive, and thus to be believed with divine faith or to be held in a definitive way, through a solemn <ex cathedra> pronouncement of the Pope or an Ecumenical Council. However, the ordinary papal Magisterium can teach a doctrine as <definitive> because it has been constantly maintained and held by Tradition and transmitted by the ordinary, universal Magisterium. This latter exercise of the charism of infallibility does not take the form of a papal act of definition, but pertains to the ordinary, universal Magisterium which the Pope again sets forth with his formal pronouncement of <confirmation> and <reaffirmation> (generally in an Encyclical or Apostolic Letter). If we were to hold that the Pope must necessarily make an <ex cathedra> definition whenever he intends to declare a doctrine as definitive because it belongs to the deposit of faith, it would imply an underestimation of the ordinary, universal Magisterium, and infallibility would be limited to the solemn definitions of the Pope or a Council, in a way that differs from the teaching of Vatican I and Vatican II, which attribute an infallible character to the teachings of the ordinary, universal Magisterium.

The particular <nature> of a teaching of the papal Magisterium that is meant merely to confirm or repropose a certitude of faith already lived consciously by the Church or affirmed by the universal teaching of the entire Episcopate can be seen not in the teaching of the doctrine <per se,> but in the fact that the Roman Pontiff formally declares that this doctrine already belongs to the faith of the Church and is infallibly taught by the ordinary, universal Magisterium as divinely revealed or to be held in a definitive way.

In the light of these considerations, it seems a pseudo-problem to wonder whether this papal act of <confirming> a teaching of the ordinary, universal Magisterium is infallible or not. In fact, although it is not <per se> a <dogmatic definition> (like the Trinitarian dogma of Nicaea, the Christological dogma of Chalcedon or the Marian dogmas), a papal pronouncement of confirmation enjoys the same infallibility as the teaching of the ordinary, universal Magisterium, which includes the Pope not as a mere Bishop but as the Head of the Episcopal College. In this regard, it is important to make clear that when the <Responsum ad dubium> of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on the doctrine taught in the Apostolic Letter <Ordinatio sacerdotalis> mentions the infallible character of this doctrine which is already possessed by the Church, it simply meant to recall that the doctrine is not infallibly proposed only on the basis of this pontifical document, but that it confirms what has been held everywhere, always and by everyone as belonging to the deposit of faith. So it is essential to maintain the principle that a teaching can also be <infallibly> proposed by the ordinary, universal Magisterium by an act that does not take the solemn form of a <definition.>

3) In some quarters the question has been raised regarding the recognition of a doctrine taught by the ordinary, universal Magisterium as revealed or to be held definitively. It has been said, for example, that for this recognition it is necessary that the unanimous consent of the entire Episcopate be explicitly evident not only in proposing a determinate judgement, but also in declaring its absolute and definitively binding character. Hence there is a doubt as to whether these requirements have been met regarding the doctrine about the non-admission of women to priestly ordination and about certain universal norms of the natural moral law.

However, these questions and the doubts that have been raised do not seem to take into account several factors which must be briefly mentioned.

a) The ordinary, universal Magisterium consists in the <unanimous> proclamation of the Bishops in union with the Pope. It is expressed in the fact that <all> the Bishops (including the Bishop of Rome, who is the Head of the College) give a common witness. It is not a question of extraordinary statements, but of the Church's normal life, of what is preached in ordinary circumstances as universal teaching in the everyday life of the Church. "<This ordinary Magisterium is thus the normal form of the Church's infallibility>".' As a consequence, it is not at all necessary that everything pertaining to the faith become explicit dogma; on the contrary, it is normal for the truth to be proposed simply by its proclamation in common -which includes non only words but also facts; the particular and explicit emphasis of a dogmatic definition is, properly speaking, an extraordinary case, usually required for very precise and particular reasons.

b) Moreover, when speaking of the need to verify the actual consent of all the Bishops dispersed throughout the world or even of the whole Christian people in matters of faith and morals, it should not be forgotten that this consent cannot be understood only <synchronically,> but also <diachronically>. This means that a morally <unanimous> consent embraces every era of the Church, and only if this totality is heard does one remain faithful to the Apostles. "If in some quarter", the wise Cardinal Ratzinger observes, "a majority were to be formed in opposition to the faith of the Church in other times, it would not be a majority at all".2

It is also worth noting that the agreement of the universal Episcopate in communion with the Successor of Peter about the doctrinal and binding character of an assertion or an ecclesial practice in ages past is not annulled or diminished by dissent that may occur in a later era.

c) Lastly, with particular reference to the teaching about reserving priestly ordination to men alone, it must be remembered that the Apostolic Letter <Ordinatio sacerdotalis> confirmed that this doctrine has been maintained by the Church's constant, universal tradition and has been firmly taught by the Magisterium in its most recent documents (n. 4). Now, everyone knows that Tradition is the hermeneutic locus where, in various ways—including that of calm conviction—the Church's self-verifying consciousness operates and is expressed. In this specific case, the Church has unanimously and consistently maintained that women cannot validly receive priestly ordination, and this same unanimity and consistency reveals not the Church's own decision, but her obedience and dependence on the will of Christ and the Apostles. Consequently, universal Tradition in this matter, marked by consistency and unanimity, contains an objective magisterial teaching that is definitive and unconditionally binding.3 The same criterion must also be applied to other doctrines regarding universal moral norms: the killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral; abortion is always gravely immoral; adultery or slander is always evil, etc. These doctrines, although not yet declared by a <solemn judgement>, nevertheless belong to the Church's faith and are infallibly proposed by the ordinary, universal Magisterium.

In conclusion, in order to speak of the <infallible ordinary and universal Magisterium>, it is necessary that the consent between the Bishops have for its object a teaching proposed as formally revealed or as certainly true and undoubted, such that it calls for the full and undeniable assent of the faithful. One can share theology's insistence on conducting careful analyses in researching the reasons for this consent or agreement. Nevertheless, there is no basis for the interpretation that the verification of an infallible teaching of the ordinary, universal Magisterium would also require a particular formality in the act of declaring the doctrine in question. Otherwise we would be dealing with a solemn definition of the Pope or of an Ecumenical Council.4

These clarifications seem necessary today, not for answering subtle and sophisticated academic questions, but for rejecting a simplistic, reductionist interpretation of the infallibility of the Magisterium, while offering at the same time correct theological principles for interpreting the value of magisterial teachings and the quality of the doctrines.

-------------

source : http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/MDPD.HTM

Alexander
10.07.04, 08:05 PM
I was searching for the MIDI of the song Micah's theme in the internet and I came up with this BLOG (and download) instead

http://www.litcom.net.au/liturgy_lines/displayarticle.php?llid=546
http://www.dbb.org.au/ourparishesandpriests/Documents/Liturgy%20information.doc

It looks like Australia (though blog was dated Jan 2009 pa) is (or was) also to follow this Vatican. Wala pa rin kasing advisory dito sa Parish namin e :D

Sir Michael
10.08.01, 05:33 PM
sayang ang ganda pa naman ng you are near... anu naman kaya ireplace nila?

Ito po:

Official Statement of Dan Schutte in the Vatican directive of prohibiting the use of "Yaweh" in the liturgy:
http://new.danschutte.com/PDF_Files/No_More_Yahweh.pdf

Official change made by Oregon Catholic Press:
http://content.ocp.org/shared/pdf/general/You-Are-Near2008.pdf

In short... OCP has replaced the text "Yaweh" in Dan Schutte's song to "O Lord"

This is Dan Schutte's publisher's revision. I think you can use the word "Father" too in this song instead of "Yaweh" if it is to be sung in the Liturgy.

callmechuckie
14.06.02, 02:29 PM
Sorry, I didn't have any idea about this since matagal din akong nawala sa service. Good thing I saw this thread. Hmm, pwede naman nga sigurong palitan yung "Yahweh" ng "O Diyos" in tagalog translation no????