Liturgical Song Discussion Section dedicated to the discussion of the proper use of what we consider as "liturgical songs"
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mike1314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titopao View Post
@mike: I think both spellings are correct You see, they're both the same words spelled differently. Di ko lang alam kung aling spelling yung mas "matanda" sa kanila. Orthography and history provided us with the different spellings.

Parang ano lang 'yan, British English and American English: "grey" and "gray" are the same words spelled differently
OT: Sa Latin lesson namin before, hindi nabanggit na may other spelling pa pala ang "quotidianum". Ganito kasi ang ginagamit naming spelling. But if you can give me reference mas maigi.
"The most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart". -Hellen Keller
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titopao
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@mike1314: Magdedepende kasi kung anong variety ng Latin ang ginagamit mo. If you're using Eccelessiastical Latin (i.e. Modern Latin, the one being taught and used in the Vatican), naturally, the "correct" spelling is "quotidianum". In earlier variants of Latin, it's spelled as "cotidianum". I'm only aware of the periods in the history of the Latin language, but I'm not much into the particulars, so I can't pinpoint the exact period (e.g. Old Latin, Classical Latin, Vulgar Latin, Medieval Latin, Renaissance Latin, or the one used by the Vatican) when "cotidianum" became "quotidianum".

Here is one German commentary about the Pater Noster and Ave Maria, which includes both "cotidianum" and "quotidianum". (Di ako nakakaintindi ng German, so I have no idea if this commentary is an analysis of the history of Pater Noster.)

A passage from the now-public domaina "Encyclopaedica Biblica" also mentions "cotidianum" instead of "quotidianum" on a discussion about the translation of the Bible (and in this particular instance, in mentioning the translation of the "Our Father").

Various writers in the Roman Empire also used "cotidianum" instead of "quotidianum":
*http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Al...n_War?match=la - Julius Caesar, "The Alexandrian War"
*http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Commen...ook_1?match=la - Julius Caesar, "Commentary on 'The Civil War'"
*http://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Dialogus_de_oratoribus - Tacitus, "Dialogus de oratoribus
*http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/For_Pu...ctius?match=la - Cicero, "For Publius Quinctius"
*http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/For_Au...ecina?match=la - Cicero, "For Aulus Caecina"

A side note: According to this language-related forum/mailing list:

Quote:
"cottidianum" etc - was the normal form in the Classical period [i.e. panahon nila Caesar, Cicero and maybe even during Jesus' time!]
"cotidianum" - is the form found in the Vulgate version of Luke 11:3.
"quotidianum" - is the form used in Catholic liturgy (which is the Matthew
version as in the Vulgate except that "quotidianum" replaces Jreome's
"supersubstantialem")
Another side note: and just to complicate things...in the Vulgate, here's how St. Jerome rendered the Pater Noster as written by St. Matthew:

Quote:
Pater noster qui in caelis es sanctificetur nomen tuum
veniat regnum tuum fiat voluntas tua sicut in caelo et in terra
panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie
et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimisimus debitoribus nostris
et ne inducas nos in temptationem sed libera nos a malo
Don't ask me why "supersubstantialem" instead of "cotidianum" or "quotidianum"...dun pa nga lang sa dalawang spellings, nalilito na tayo, what more with this one


Additional reference:
*http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer - from The Christianity Wikia


* * * * *

An afterthought: I think that the issue of which is the "correct" word between "cotidianum" and "quotidianum" is essentially the same as asking which is the "correct" spelling between "ngunit" [contemporary, but technically incorrect, usage] and "nguni't" [what should be the correct spelling], or between "sapagkat" and "sapagka't", or between "mga" and "manga" (you'll see "manga" more often than "mga" in the Pasyon). Linguistically speaking, one is an older form of the other, but they're just different forms of the same word with the same exact meaning, so it's a moot topic hehehe
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mike1314
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Salamat titopao. Malaking tulong ito.
"The most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart". -Hellen Keller
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crissy_21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonjing15 View Post
I know it's disrespectful to the composer..
Pero kung sakali po ba, pwedeng palitan na lang yung phrase na
sa gawang masama into "sa lahat ng masama"?
Pwede rin po kasing sumakto pag kinanta na..

Marami rin namang kanta na ginagawan ng areglo ng ibang koro..
Pwede kaya??

It's confusing nga po pala, kasi sa Mass for Peace (gawang masama)
then sa Trinity (lahat ng masama) pati din sa ibang Ama Namin (lahat ng masama) din ang dulo.
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Rancy Jun Micabani
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I have attended a liturgical music seminar sometime ago. ang sabi don po ay "dapat daw na ang lyrics sa kanta for the common songs (like kyrie, gloria, sanctus, pater noster, agnus) must be found exactly the same (word for word) with what is found in the missal used by the priests.
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D'MECC
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yup nalilito rin ako regarding this Ama namin... kasi minsan sumabay sa pagkanta yung pari namin pero sa lahat ng masama yung amin ang sa kanya naman ay gawang masama... pati na rin sa Cebuano iba rin yung kay Sis. Nars Fernandez kaysa kay Fr. Villanueva... "Ug dili mo kami itugot sa pagsulay" then the other one "Ug dili mo kami itugot sa panulay"... nakakalito
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mootboot12
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I studied Latin in the seminary. QUOTIDIANUM and COTIDIANUM are the same.
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